Odd irons "issue" with Mk23 and MP5

[keihaswarrior]

The Desert Eagle weighs 1.7kg, the HK Mk23 is 1.1kg. So, they are not the same weight nor bulk. Furthermore, the suppressor for the Mk23 is obviously not larger than the one for the p90, Famas, or mp5. AND the LAM for the Mk23 is not three times bulkier than the LAM for the Sig551!!

The bulk for the Mk23's suppressor and LAM is ridiculous. It makes the Mk23 a worthless gun because it ends up being more bulk than a friggin p90.

 

[cracwhore]

I was told from Beppo that it was for "balance".
I didn't know the Mk23 was that good of a gun that it needed a "6 lbs of balance" bulk to go along with it.
Maybe we can have 1lb bullets for the M9 then? You know, for balance.

 

[sir_edmond]

I got an idea for bulk:

It could be weigh+mass/2=bulk

 

[geogob]

I got an idea for bulk:

It could be weigh+mass/2=bulk

crack anyone?

 

[spm1138]

The SOCOM's supressor is high bulk because it makes it (theoretically) a lot more valuable than the other pistols.

I guess it's also high bulk because fitting a whopping great can on the end would make it much more awkward to handle.

 

[Beppo]

two things... starting with the suppressor bulk first:

The MK + sup is pretty LONG... you would have to fit it on your thigh to have it 'out of the way' and even then it would scratch around your kneecaps. At hip it is even more bulky. Bulk is not only weight...
Another reason was the balancing as already said earlier even if the quote wasn't taken from a 100% serious dialogue. Every weapon, mag and equipment in INF has bulk values that are used for balancing reasons and for represnting their real counterparts. But you cannot model these values 100% after the real thing if you want to let the game remain balanced. Else everybody would run around with dozens of 40mms or frag grenades or would carry hundreds of clips, would carry three pistols, two ARs, a nade launcher, one or two MPs and a sniper rifle for the case you need it...

To the general issue about offsets, iron sights aso...
Well, in UT you cannot determine the 100% correct spot of ie. the weapon meshs muzzle. In UT2k3/4 you can archive this by placing a bone at the correct spot that uses the correct rotation but not in good old UT from '99. So, the weapon model and the used offsets are two fully seperate things that we tried to get as close together as possible for the 'standard' ranges the weapons are used for. If a weapon model is not 100% accurate in its position of its iron sights, or if the model is only a tenth part of a degree rotated to the left or right, up or down, or any other slightly off part then the whole thing will not be working correctly. So it is always a tweaking of values till you have a set of offsets that allows the usage of the models iron sights properly on specific ranges. So, every of our weapons is slightly off to a specific degree... some more like the M16 for example. So, the minimal errors that the modeler and animator made during the building process of the model are responsible for the ability to use the iron sights in game.
Maybe compare it to the real world and the real iron sights out there. If the sights are not 100% then they will not be fully useable. So the range used to 'zero' the weapons in real life will be the one that the weapon will be dead on... any other distance be it closer or farer will not be dead on target. And the farer away your target, the more the 'error' will be noticeable normally.
So, take it this way:
We tried to setup everything as good as possible with the given models and animations and used standard ranges for the zeroing. The values we are using made their way through hours and hours of testing (weeks if not even months actually), even code changes and totally new offsets and whatnot, to get this final result that IS useable on the ranges the weapons are designed for.
In addition... if you know or better learned to which direction the projectile will go off oncertain distances then you know where to aim even if the iron sights are a bit off then. And if you now think that a game that tries to be realistic should be 100% accurate with their iron sights used, then let me tell you that in real life you will not have a 100% accurate system in hands normally too.... even not the special forces. And even then, some weapons tend to drift off into specific directions by 'design' out there... so nothing is 100% perfect.
I just remember 'my' weapons I had in hand during my time in the army... first training G3 was dead on spot at 200 meters... perfect on this range and closer, but not for longer ranges. My 'regular' G3 I got after training was totally off... my 'aiming spot' was 'left lower 4' by 10 being the middle circle... now think about the spot I had to aim on on 200 meters... was not such an easy shooting anymore then

 

[cracwhore]

Beppo, thanks for the post.

I would have to disagree with you about the balancing of, at least the Mk23. Nades I can kinda see why. And not being able to shoulder the minimi while jogging? In my opinion, if a gun is a very nice gun in real life, there's no need to balance it to make it "decent" instead of "really nice". Like the SAW for instance. Even if you made it possible to be aimed while jogging, it would still be a heavy gun, which means more people would likely take an M-16 instead. I think the guns would balance themselves out without needing little tweaks to their bulk and things like what the SAW has in terms of recoil and "not being able to jog and aim". But it's your game. I just play it religiously. I can see why you wouldn't want people to be able to carry like 5 guns at once, but still, there should be a better way around this than handicapping some guns by adding bulk. I guess it would only make sense to have the stamina system perfected first before we can start to complain about bulk of weapons.

Yeah, I understand it's hard to do. Like I said, I'd rather you guys work on new weapons + porting to 2k4 than worry about small things in 2.9. Just thought it was kinda odd how some of the guns fired. Keep up the hard word Beppo, and thanks for posting/giving the gaming community a reason to live.

 

[gal-z]

Shouldering the Negev LMG (quite the same as the minimi, but uses a 150 round drum) while STANDING STILL is harder IRL than in-game, so u want to shoulder it while running?
Negev users here are taught to shoot from the hip when standing and crouching most of the time (when prone position isn't practical), as well as when running forward.

 

[Demosthanese]

Well, I decided to spend some time in the shooting range between bouts with
my cable modem today, and Ijust don't see thes inconsistancies that you keep
talking about. I fired full auto and rapid semi on the MP5 and got most of the
bullets through the target at 100M. I then did the same with the MK23 SOCOM
and it fired a little low, but that is consistant with bullet drop.

I do know that I run one of the fastest systems here, so it may be an issue with
failure to adjust things for a lower end system.

 

[[C22]-Mort]

Maybe Beppo, should make a sticky explaining what 'Bulk' is in INF as he seems to have to repeat it in every 3rd thread

I agree with the 'balancing', if we just did straight ports of lots of different weapons then some will obviously be better than others (as they are in real life), so the majority of people would gravitate towards the better weapons, I like the fact that I see so many people on the servers using all of the available weapons. Remember in 2.86 how many people had Robar + SMG or Assault rifle loudouts? Not such an attractive option now that the unloaded Robar's Bulk = 35

 

[keihaswarrior]

Not only does the idea of bulk not justifiy the Mk23's 6 bulk LAM+suppressor combo, but NEITHER does balance! The gun is one of the worst in the game! It shoots slow and kills in the same # of hits as the m9 or 57. Add the messed up offset (it shoots low and to the left) and you have a gun no one uses.

@ Mort
INF is supposed to be as real as it gets. When settling on bulk and other values for the weapons, realism should always be the first goal. ONLY when it is not possible to model the disadvantages of a weapon realistically (or if there are strong negative effects on gameplay) should other values be tweaked to compensate IMO.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

i am with keihas. First is "as real as it gets". In fact, if you accomplish to have realism in all the facets of the game it will be balanced, because the reality have a perfect balance. Only if the SS team can´t portray some flaws or some aspects then they have to use a gamey-balance.

Or, at least, it should be.

 

[Demosthanese]

I think I will try INF at a low res to see if that changes how the MP5 and MK23 perform.

Edit: Went to 640*480 and I noticed that the weapon was not as accurate.

 

[Dr.J]

In fact, if you accomplish to have realism in all the facets of the game it will be balanced, because the reality have a perfect balance. Only if the SS team can´t portray some flaws or some aspects then they have to use a gamey-balance.

firearm manufacturers dont tone down weapons to create 'balance'. in fact, balance is a bad thing in real life. as if you want a product with disadvantages.

 

[[C22]-Mort]

Yes...BUT Inf is a game NOT real-life and at the end of the day other factors than just realism HAVE to be taken into account in order to make the game as enjoyable as possible and give us as big an arsenal as possible allowing people to use any weapon and for the weapon of their choice to be as balanced as possible for gameplay purposes!

I would much rather see the balancing as it is than find that one weapon is so superior to others that everybody uses it....how dull would that be!

 

[Logan6]

Im with the realists. I can't stand sims that claim to be "totally real" and then try to balance everything. You just took away the realism. In nature and real life, everything is balanced allready in one way or the other. In weapons, this is achieved by bulk, skill, preference, space, time, and many other factors. People who take Robars into tightly spaced city maps are going to find themselves dead pretty quick when they come up against the MP5 crowd. Sure they might find a good niche somewhere and get off a few headshots, but they aren't going to live long, and in a game with limited lives that hurts. Here balance is achieved by number of easy kills / lifespan. It all balances in the end. Though as a person who has fired many weapons, I can tell you that it is pretty hard to run with a shouldered M249. Forget it. Hipped ok, but not shouldered. It would be extremely heavy and your sights would be bouncing all over the place. You could probably hold it for a couple of seconds this way ( not being able to hit anything ) before you would have to drop it to hip from exhaustion. Hell my AK with 76 round drum mag loaded is a heavy bitch, and I can't imagine running with it shouldered for more than a few seconds.

I agree with Beppo on his bulk statement though; bulk is not just weight but space taken also. And the MK23 is about twice the size of the Colt .45. Hell, maybe even bigger than the desert eagle. Personally, I wish we would get rid of the MK23 because no one ever models it to its actual size, which is shockingly large, and it is a very rare weapon (at least here in the US ) costing over $2000. Better and more common pistols I can think of HK USP, Colt Mark IV, Glock .45, etc.

One way, you could achieve a little more balance is to give everyone an account of the same amount to buy weapons with. Cost is a factor in military operations as all governments and terrorists groups have certain budgets. Though I really don't like this. I think realism balances the game just right and when all the weapons are made completely real, people will see this.

One other problem I have with the weapons is that some of them have overzealous kickback. Its too extreme. One good example is the M249. I've seen horses that kick less. Its not bad at prone, pretty much how it should be bipoded. Its a heavy weapon, and because of that should have little kick, the weapon absorbing most of the energy and gravity keeping the barrel down. However when you shoot crouched or standing after about 5 shots the barrel seems to be flying over your head. So in the end, you can't hit **** with it. Reminds me of the scopes. Obviously an unreal attempt at balance.

I have noticed that the weapons seem to be off not only in accuracy but also in precision. Some times my RC50 would hit way left and then on the next shot at the same point hit way right. I think the weapons need to be more precise and have better groups.

When True Combat for Quake 3 came out with its 1.0 version and all its
"balances", that when I and many other people left it. Balancing destroys a sim and soon fills it with nothing but fantasy players who wouldn't know realism even if it could peirce their thick skulls.

 

[gal-z]

Basically yeah, logan.
One thing, shooting the Israeli negev LMG hipped standing and crouched is not that hard, and the negev is much like the MINIMI (5.56 LMG 10.3kg with 150 ss109 rounds). Aiming it is hardly possible and totally impractical though - by the time u allign the sights you'd get shot many times, while you could've sprayed from the hip, while moving the barrel according to the hits (which is how they teach u to do it in the Israeli army with the Negev).

 

[Logan6]

Well, thats one other problem I have with the game ( not that many others have it ) and that is the speed of weapon switching. Like switching between rifle and pistol is almost instantaneous. A little unrealistic. What would be nice for an emergency pisol draw is just let your primary crash to the ground ( and possibly take some damage jamming it, bending the magazine etc. ) and rip your pistol out of its holster.

How is the kick on the negev? Been watching CNNs coverage of Felugah or whatever the hell its called, and especially watching how much kick was in the Minimi's they were using. Unfortunately, they've all been sitting on sandbags so you can't really tell how much kick is in one being shot free floating while standing. But I think it has been overdone in the game. After about 5 to 10 shots your looking at the sky.

 

[gal-z]

It's hard to tell how much it kicks since I didn't shoot it... Hope to get to shoot it in the future (I'm a sharpshooter with M4A1 with trij 4x for day and aquila 4x for night, as well as a harris bipod). My friends (I.E. the Negevists, 1 per squad), however, say it's not hard to hit targets from 50m hipped by looking at where it hits and correct yourself, while in-game it looks pretty hard, although still possible.

 

[Beppo]

One other problem I have with the weapons is that some of them have overzealous kickback. Its too extreme. One good example is the M249. I've seen horses that kick less. Its not bad at prone, pretty much how it should be bipoded. Its a heavy weapon, and because of that should have little kick, the weapon absorbing most of the energy and gravity keeping the barrel down. However when you shoot crouched or standing after about 5 shots the barrel seems to be flying over your head. So in the end, you can't hit **** with it. Reminds me of the scopes. Obviously an unreal attempt at balance.

No 'unreal attempt' or something alike... use your mouse to control the recoil effect. Move your mouse down to simulate your arms trying to 'stabilize' the weapon again. If you get used to it then you can fire very precise and tight groups this way. And in addition... fire small bursts... not dozens of shots in a row... you aren't Arni in one of his Hollywood movies.

I have noticed that the weapons seem to be off not only in accuracy but also in precision. Some times my RC50 would hit way left and then on the next shot at the same point hit way right. I think the weapons need to be more precise and have better groups.

The grouping is 100% ok. If you aim at the same spot with the same stamina and breath control then you will hit exactly the same spot again. Mouse speed, smoothness and resolution are the key factors. And of course, the angle you are aiming 'with'.

In fact, if you accomplish to have realism in all the facets of the game it will be balanced, because the reality have a perfect balance. Only if the SS team can´t portray some flaws or some aspects then they have to use a gamey-balance.

Can only second what Dr.J said here... real life is NOT balanced... and there is always a bunch of weapons out there that is superior. Just think about a FA MAS with better iron sights... plus suppressor it would be the 'uber' weapon. Many even use it now with sup and ACOG. Well balancing in INF is not that much of a factor... the little things that are implemented in the sense of balancing are more some sort of 'no one would do this in real life' restrictions and not 'oh this weapon is tooooo powerful, lets increase its bulk or recoil'. Perfect example... sniper rifles not useable at hip and heavy weapons not useable while jogging or medium weight weapons not useable while sprinting. Everything that you would never do in real life but any gamer would do within a game to gain an advantage. That's what 'balancing' is for... keeping stuff more the real way.

I think I will try INF at a low res to see if that changes how the MP5 and MK23 perform.

Edit: Went to 640*480 and I noticed that the weapon was not as accurate.

That is based on the fact that the lower your resolution is, the lesser 'points/pixels' you have to aim at. Means, more pixels = more spots to aim at and this equals more accuracy. This all in combination with the resolution of your mouse too of course.

Not only does the idea of bulk not justifiy the Mk23's 6 bulk LAM+suppressor combo, but NEITHER does balance! The gun is one of the worst in the game! It shoots slow and kills in the same # of hits as the m9 or 57. Add the messed up offset (it shoots low and to the left) and you have a gun no one uses.

The Mk23 can use a suppressor and that makes it very high in value if you want to use it in the field while moving in as silent as you want. Sure on the open field a suppressor is not really an advantage, but in CQB while sneaking around it is. And the bad accuracy you describe is maybe your own lack of skill in using this weapon properly. The Mk is accurate and can be used for silent skilled headshots with ease. And as Logan6 said already... the Mk is huge and with suppressor it is even bigger. Now go buy one, attach a suppressor and place it on your thigh... make a photo and post it here. Then we can continue the discussion about its bulk values, period.