Odd irons "issue" with Mk23 and MP5

[MP_Duke]

I understand what you're saying crac, I never use the mk23 for the same reasons. I find it weak and inaccurate at relatively close range. Every gun has an aimerror variable (at least in 2.86 they did) that affects the angle at which the bullet travels producing a subtle "conefire" effect. Perhaps this is set too high for the socom.

The MP5 does shoot low and to the left a bit, it's been like that since 2.86...
As yurch stated, the projectile's trajectory is not a direct consequence of the gun's location and rotation. That is, the bullet is not actually sitting in the gun waiting to be fired out of the barrel and inheriting all the physical properties it should based on barrel length, angle, and what-not. Instead, when the gun is fired, a message is sent to the computer telling it fired, the computer then creates or spawns the projectile at a relative location with a relative rotation that have to be declared in the code. It's very tedious to tweak and adjust these values. With all that goes on with the code, one can easily forget to even check. The code always has to be recompiled after each change--quite a pain in the ass.

Fortunately, however, some variables can be edited in-game in real-time, such as these traceroffsets, using the 'editactor' console command. Saves constant retweaking in this respect, but you still have to recompile after you've made your change.

 

[cracwhore]

The real issues here are all the people who claim to be able to hit anything with a beretta at 100m plus. IRL most of you would have real trouble hitting the target screen at those ranges. Long range (that's over about 15m) pistol shooting is difficult and requires a lot of training.

Yeah, I don't "claim" I can pinpoint an M9 (or almost any gun, other than the Mk23 or MP5) past 100m; I know I can and will gladly show you. This of course, is "in-game", as I'm not talking about "IRL" . I agree that pistol shooting at long ranges would be pretty difficult. But again, I'm talking about "INF2.9", not it's practical application to real life/the actual military/my mom. With that said......

Duke, thanks for the post. Seems like how I was trying to word it. I know that the gun firing is just simulated. I'm not that dumb . The offsets, in my opinion, make the Mk23 completely impractical in the game for me and for many others. I just hate to see such a nice handgun go to waste. I see what Yurch was trying to say about how the aiming system doesn't affect the actual "bullet", it seemed confusing what he was trying to say about the "laser" . However, it just seems kind of odd that the bullet does't hit where it's aimed when you're laying prone and holding your breath (for me at least...and within the "INF 2.9" game). If it's going to require a whole recompiled code, forget it. I'd rather see INF3.0 out for a better engine that have anything in this one fixed and tampered with over and over. Anyway, time for "real life" to take over for me. So long.

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

It's totally possible that the MK23 and MP5 offsets are still a bit off.

In 2.86 the PSG, MP5 and M16 offsetz were totally off, the DE a bit IIRC. The 2.9 weapons are already much more accurate. I think we will have to live with how they are now. Still, a mutator could fix it.

 

[ecale3]

I so wish the Mk23 wasn't so messed up, my PSG loadout could really use a suppressed pistol for switching positions.

 

[yurch]

Yurch, I understand that you're not the one calling the shots on this and I appreciate what you and the SS team have done for this mod. I've just noticed that the Mk23 has "lackluster" (at best) performance in this game. Since it has so much hype and rave reviews, I imagine it is a little better than the M9 IRL. I'm guessing if you asked an Army soldier if he would prefer to carry an M9 or a spec-ops pistol such as the SOCOM, he would pick the Mk23. At 50m, the Mk23 should perform much better than it does.

The mk23 is actually quite an obnoxiously large pistol, It's easy to find something smaller of even the same caliber.

As for the simulated "windage" and whatnot, I have no clue. But obviously, the M9 isn't affected by this (in the game) since I can get sick headshots with it. I'm pretty sure the Mk23 outperforms the M9 in a lot of categories. I could be wrong, but with all of the hype surrounding it (and the USP Tactical), plus the great reputation HK has built up from making extremely reliable/accurate weapons, it would seem that it's a great handgun.

Alot of these issues might be arising from the fact that the mk23 is being treated as a pistol and the m9 is not. (A pistol being an inherently inaccurate weapon in the hands of any human, due to short sight radius and no stock support, ect - it doesn't matter what they bench test as) Visually you can get more varience in the shot with less 'error' (therefore the weapon is harder to shoot, on purpose or not) depending on how the model pivots and moves, the way it looks, ect. These visual schemes may have arisen in inf's development as a way to make the pistols work like pistols, at least, the later ones. I think the m9 is one of the oldest weapons in the game, and it seems to lack some of these visual tricks. These tricks can be adapted for to some extent - I used to spank people regularly with a DE or Mk23 - but they do increase the overall difficulty of the weapon.
If you were wondering which was futher off in terms of correctness, I'd go with the m9 as being far too accurate for a pistol.

 

[keihaswarrior]

There doesn't appear to be much wrong with the accuracy except the offset. I tested a bunch of the weapons. The MK23 and bare irons MP5 definately seem to be incorrectly offset.

As you can see in the screens, the M9 shoots dead on. The MP5 with AimPoint shoots straight on, but with a longer range zero. However, the MK23 shoots down to the left, and the MP5 shoots directly to the left side.

 

[Mappie]

How many yards was that shot at KW?

 

[keihaswarrior]

How many yards was that shot at KW?

50m


not yards

 

[[C22]-Mort]

Well judging from those shots I'd have to agree with yurch. The only problem weapon there is the M9 which seems far too accurate!

For a pistol and a weapon, the MK23 & MP5 being fired from 50M they seem fairly accurate to me, certainly the distance from "dead-center" is so small that you certainly aren't going to have too much problem hitting a human figure from 50-100 metres, though it does seem that if you want a good back-up weapon for your PSG loadout take an M9 .... CQB option for moving position and you can still snipe with it if you run out of PSG ammo

 

[cracwhore]

Also, your odds of hitting a moving target with the Mk23 are very slim. I got some pretty decent headshot kills with it at 50m, but if anybody was even jogging from like 10m away from me, I couldn't hit anything with it. So the only way the Mk23 seems to be "decent" is when your target is sitting still like a big idiot . The MP5 with the aimpoint is a lot more accurate at long ranges. I think it might be as accurate as the M9. Haven't tested this fully but I have gotten similar headshots with the aimpoint. Like I said, this is an odd issue. Not important if it's going to slow down progress of the port to 2k4; but I would like Beppo to at least post his thoughts on ths Mk23 at the very least. What would be even better if he tweaked it just a bit so that it could be put to proper use. But like I said, if it's too much trouble...let the Mk23 sleep with the fishes.

This has turned into some sick obsession with a few of us over the past few days. I've been taking it lately just because I love HK pistols and want to convince myself that it's as good as the M9 in-game . Keihas has been taking it just to hate his life I guess. Anyway, I'd like to run a Mk23-only deathmatch and see how the acc. and kill-rate turns out. It would be funny if nothing else.

-side note: I haven't slept in 3 days, if there are any typos or large portions of this post that don't make any sense, pretend it does and move on.

 

[Tiffy]

Also, your odds of hitting a moving target with the Mk23 are very slim. I got some pretty decent headshot kills with it at 50m, but if anybody was even jogging from like 10m away from me, I couldn't hit anything with it. So the only way the Mk23 seems to be "decent" is when your target is sitting still like a big idiot . The MP5 with the aimpoint is a lot more accurate at long ranges. I think it might be as accurate as the M9. Haven't tested this fully but I have gotten similar headshots with the aimpoint. Like I said, this is an odd issue. Not important if it's going to slow down progress of the port to 2k4; but I would like Beppo to at least post his thoughts on ths Mk23 at the very least. What would be even better if he tweaked it just a bit so that it could be put to proper use. But like I said, if it's too much trouble...let the Mk23 sleep with the fishes.

This has turned into some sick obsession with a few of us over the past few days. I've been taking it lately just because I love HK pistols and want to convince myself that it's as good as the M9 in-game . Keihas has been taking it just to hate his life I guess. Anyway, I'd like to run a Mk23-only deathmatch and see how the acc. and kill-rate turns out. It would be funny if nothing else.

-side note: I haven't slept in 3 days, if there are any typos or large portions of this post that don't make any sense, pretend it does and move on.

I still say this comparision is the wrong way around. From what your saying the Mk23 sounds like what I'd expect from a pistol IRL while the M9 is way to easy to use/ accurate.

Before anyone says they don't care about real life, this is just a game remember that INF claims to be "As real as it gets".

 

[cracwhore]

Before anyone says they don't care about real life, this is just a game remember that INF claims to be "As real as it gets".

....while still being a game.

Otherwise it would be a bad game. When compared to other "tactical shooting games", INF is indeed "as real" as "real" can "really" be. However, it is still a game in which the main focus is to provide an interesting alternative to the over-saturated FPS market. While we're on the realism soapbox, anybody want to tell me how it's possible that the soldier model in INF 2.9 can give birth to claymores? .

The M9 may be too accurate at long ranges. I never said that wasn't a possibility. In fact, I even suggested it. I am still saying, despite my being a pretty decent shot with all weapons, something still feels "wrong" about the Mk23. It just feels like it should be a tiny bit more accurate. For the Mk23, that tiny tweak would make a world of difference. But again, I don't call the shots, I'm just voicing the popular opinion (which could be wrong). You can't honestly say that you don't yell "FOUCK!" when you end up being the spec, stuck with the Mk23 . Cheers.

EDIT: I also yell this with the 5-7. Thanks for reminding me Yurch .

 

[yurch]

You can't honestly say that you don't yell "FOUCK!" when you end up being the spec, stuck with the Mk23

Actually, I typically yell this when I get the 5-7.
Personal weapon approaches can go a long way.

 

[Grim_Reaper ~UFS~]

shouldnt the mk23 be more accurate than the m9?

 

[Derelan]

so why is the mp5 more accurate with the aimpoint than with simple iron sights?

Perhaps the coding for 'accuracy' was not updated to the mp5 with an aimpoint when it was to the ironsights? Just guessing here...

 

[cracwhore]

Maybe if we just mentioned the word "bug", Beppo would come storming in here and tell us what he thinks? .

Let's try...

"BUG!"

Well, considering all of the hype the Mk23 gets, I would bet my manhood on it being more accurate than the M9. I mean, the M9 is 9mm, which by "obnoxious definition" is technically, "more accurate" since it can pinpoint better than a .45ACP round. It's like comparing a graffiti "sniff me" marker to a Bic #2 mechanical pencil. So if you played "Jordan Vs. Bird" with the two pistols and told me to shoot through a tiny spot with my Mk23 without nicking the edge of it? You'd probably win. Maybe that made more sense when I said it in person.

The MP5 issue is kind of strange, but if I were to guess anything, it's because they are technically two seperate models. But, until Beppo decides to chime in here, I guess we'll never officially know about this. So while we wait? Anybody want to play Battleship or Dr. Mario?

 

[Derelan]

Anybody want to play Battleship or Dr. Mario?

i was thinking we could play The Waiting Game, but lets play hungry hungry hippos.

 

[ecale3]

monopoly kills time better IMO.

 

[Mappie]

I get to be the race car....

 

[Logan6]

Ok, my two cents. Im a True Combat veteran of about 2 years and I finally left that game because I saw far more realism in Infiltration. We got our pistol whores over there too.

The problem is that some people seem to think that in real life pistols have sniper rifle accuracy. Not true. Especially not .45s. In the US military the .45 has the nick "Hand Howitzer". Gives you some idea of its accuracy. The .45 round is just not an incredibly accurate round no matter what gun you put it in. I own a Colt Mark IV Combat Commander in .45. VERY nice .45. I love it. I took the Mk 23 out on the Infiltration firing range and fired it with and without the laser on. Seemed to shoot fine to me. I shot at 25 yards which is about as long a range as a combat pistol was meant to shoot. Got some very good groups. Shot at 10 yards from the hip with laser on, got again very good groups. One thing that improves the groups is holding your breath before you shoot.
The pistol IMO has about the same accuracy as my Colt Mark IV in real life, which is what I would expect. Colt is about the US equivalent of HK in Germany as far as craftsmanship and accuracy go.
You have to remember that the .45 is less aerodynamic than the 9mm because it is only travelling at around 800 fps, which is subsonic. Its basically a cannon round. While hard to deflect because of its high inertia, it has a wide trajectory, so therefore more dispersion. Still the weapon does what it was meant to do, take the enemy out at short range with one or two shots.
I agree that the 9mm may be a little too accurate, but barely so, I wouldn't bother changing anything in it. Its a light super sonic round that is a fairly flat shooter. Fired it on the infiltration range as well and it seemed ok to me.

Also, someone was complaining about the weights of the laser and the flashlight. Have any of you ever held a Mk23 in your hands? It easily weighs as much as the desert eagle. It is a big gun. Hell, it holds 15 .45 rounds in the grip! I think the weight scale is about right for the flash/laser and attachment plates. Though I do agree I wish we had seperate switches for the laser and the flashlight. Maybe someone can do a mutator.