No HUD.

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.

ravens_hawk

New Member
Apr 20, 2002
468
0
0
Visit site
Most of the HUD is there to give you information your body tells you automatically (through either of the autonomic or central nervous system.) I can tell the position of my limbs without looking (go ahead close your eyes and touch your feet or nose, provided your not drunk you should be able to do it.) I can tell if my legs are resting on the ground by the feeling my brain receives from the nerves there. I can tell how tired I am by my heart, breathing rate (which isn’t always resounding in my ears) and my blood pressure. I should be able to tell if I have a pistol strapped to my thigh or a submachine gun at my back. The number of magazines I have might be an issue if I were wearing body armour, but I should at the very least be able to tell how weighted down I am. Being shot: lets work on a more realistic way of modeling damage to the body before we decide on how to relay that information to the player. As for some of the other elements I would strongly suspect they were added for gameplay purposes, something about not having a first time player lost on a map, or balancing TK issues due to graphics limitations.

That’s what the HUD is folks, a way to give information to the player that, he would be getting if this were not a computer simulation. If you want absolute realism go out and use real bullets, failing that try and get you hands on some miles gear.
:rolleyes:

PS Sorry for the Psycho-length post
 

Harrm

I am watching porns.
Oct 21, 2001
801
0
0
Porns
clanterritory.com
If I´m looking down a roof, standing on the corner I want to know if I am crouching or not, most important is, I want to know if the run is adjusted or the walk, not to fall down with the intention to make just a step.

If you're not using "hold to crouch" you probably haven't played enough First Person Shooters. That or you're probably a camper.

I know you guys are concerned about play balance, etc. But INF is a realism mod. A HUD is not real unless you're in a vehicle. It's a matter of figuring out ways to eliminate the HUD crutch altogether.

--Harrm
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
I use crouch toggle in INF. When I adjust the run I have to know it.

It has nothing to do with balance. This is a realism mod and playing a soldier that doesn't feel his body is unrealistic.


On the other hand I (allready some time ago) thought about the HUD info showing up only in the score table, or a special key to check the hud (which have to be disabled to play properly).

When you play, you have no HUD except few chat lines for important incombat chat. Pushing the score key, or a HUD info key, where you check what weapons (just formally), ammo you have and your exact health status, showing where you got hits and how serious.
That way you can say you are hit in the shoulder for example. You also know what ammo you have (if forgot, or after a firefight with mass reloads), same as you would look at the vest in real life, you would check it with a key ingame.


The only things I think have to show up in the HUD are a simple injury awareness info and the ROF. The ROF have to show up cuz it is important to instantly know what ROF you have (since you can sense it with the finger).
The injury info would have different colors for different injury types.
See attached picture 1.


Originally posted by Vega-don
You can focus at a 45 deg only but you can notice any movement within the 180deg, and under a certain range.

so maybe we need implementation of detection by icon only when theire is a enemy movement and only if the FOV is static (you dont notice something moving when theire is things moving all around).
Exactly. I thought about an 'awareness' function. As in real life when something is as near as out of your fov (ingame it is out) you still have an awareness of movement and lightsources. In the game this can be displayed by little flackering in the flank corner on your screen bottom.

That way you could know if a mate that follows you at the right is still there following you, or allready not there.
See attached picture 2.
 

Attachments

  • HUD reduced.jpg
    HUD reduced.jpg
    184.7 KB · Views: 34
  • FOV.gif
    FOV.gif
    41.8 KB · Views: 37

flamingknives

New Member
Oct 23, 2004
40
0
0
Harrm said:
If you're not using "hold to crouch" you probably haven't played enough First Person Shooters. That or you're probably a camper.
If you use hold to crounch, you play too much FPSs

Anyone who's ever watch combat footage, read about infantry combat or played paintball, let alone actually done it, ought to realise that the default position for a soldier is on the deck behind as much cover as possible. The major exception is in Fighting In Someone's House (FISH) where cover is tall enough to stand behind.

What's wrong with camping? The majority of the world's armies do it.

I know you guys are concerned about play balance, etc. But INF is a realism mod. A HUD is not real unless you're in a vehicle. It's a matter of figuring out ways to eliminate the HUD crutch altogether.

--Harrm
What's realistic about having to use secondary effects to work out:
a) what weapons I'm carrying?
b) how I'm standing?
c) how tired I am?
d) the position of a small switch adjacent to my thumb?

The only way to eliminate the HUD is to introduce full-body VR suits.
 

Harrm

I am watching porns.
Oct 21, 2001
801
0
0
Porns
clanterritory.com
If you use hold to crounch, you play too much FPSs

I play videogames perhaps 1 hour a week, down from about 10-20 hours a week when I was playing INF.

What's realistic about having to use secondary effects to work out:
a) what weapons I'm carrying?
b) how I'm standing?
c) how tired I am?
d) the position of a small switch adjacent to my thumb?

We've been over the possible answers to all of these, but I'll repeat myself:
A- You choose your loadout before you even start the mission.
B- Look at your screen. And if you cant tell, glance at the ground.
C- The speed at which you move.
D- Preferably shown on the model while playing.

What's wrong with camping? The majority of the world's armies do it.

In INF concept: The majority of the worlds' armies do not camp, hence the term "mobile war". In Iraq today, the standard protocol for US troops (at least those still in active combat, or formerly in active combat, like the 502nd, 503rd, etc.) is still squad-based patrol and mobile street-to-street fighting. Any stationary defended positions are, as a general practice, reduced to rubble by heavy weapons or supporting fire. This strategy came to light just days after the start of heavy street fighting, but it sort of died down after the PR got bad, and now it still happens; but takes a little bearaucracy to do.

--Harrm
 
Last edited:
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
Harrm said:
We've been over the possible answers to all of these, but I'll repeat myself:
A- You choose your loadout before you even start the mission.
B- Look at your screen. And if you cant tell, glance at the ground.
C- The speed at which you move.
D- Preferably shown on the model while playing.
That reason not much.
A: Agreed.
B: Glancing at the ground and observing the screen is cheap solution.
C: Most horrible, to first to move to know whats the case about your movement.
D: Mostly this part is not seen, especially not clearly to see from the perspective. And even if you have a check selector option, it still does not give you te option to know the selectors position by feeling with the thumb.

I agree, that mostly you know the stance and speed, just by playing (I look at the soldier icon not often), but a very simple live info about stance, speed and health status have to be for cases, where you have to be sure you walk slow before moving.


One possibility would be that you have only the ROF as a letter visible at the left buttom (I insist on that, I know how annoying it will be to switch trigger when 3 burst modes are available).

When hurt a small cloudish looking red light at the right bottom just appears (see my previous posted picture).

To be aware of the moving speed and stance, you push the movement key and a word (in letters) appears somewhere at the bottom telling you 'Slow', or 'Fast' and disappears again (transparency fade out). This might be not important for crouch/stand, since you would see the effect toggling the crouch key, but in case of the movement it would tell you before you move, if forgot what speed, just push the movement key and adjust what's needed.
To decrease the annoying factor of this messages, they will appear only when you stand (and can'T tell what speed is adjusted), but when you move, you will notice anyway.
Otherwise I don't see a problem to have a small bar near the ROF icon wich will be half long if crouching.

But I stil insist on the total information of your armory/equipment and health status with about an exact hit detection as a window toggled with a key, or in the score menu.


The uploaded pic shows that.
The points at the left show the stance, the letter the ROF, the typo in the centre the speed and the red light at the right critical injury.
 

Attachments

  • HUD-anim.gif
    HUD-anim.gif
    253.4 KB · Views: 21
Last edited:
Apr 11, 2002
796
0
16
Dallas, TX
www.google.com
Harrm said:
We've been over the possible answers to all of these, but I'll repeat myself:
A- You choose your loadout before you even start the mission.
B- Look at your screen. And if you cant tell, glance at the ground.
C- The speed at which you move.
D- Preferably shown on the model while playing.



In INF concept: The majority of the worlds' armies do not camp, hence the term "mobile war". In Iraq today, the standard protocol for US troops (at least those still in active combat, or formerly in active combat, like the 502nd, 503rd, etc.) is still squad-based patrol and mobile street-to-street fighting. Any stationary defended positions are, as a general practice, reduced to rubble by heavy weapons or supporting fire. This strategy came to light just days after the start of heavy street fighting, but it sort of died down after the PR got bad, and now it still happens; but takes a little bearaucracy to do.

--Harrm
A) You're an imbecile, but you got lucky on this one.
B) You're a nitwit. I can tell how I am standing with my eyes closed. This indicator also tells me if I am going to walk or jog when I start to move. Having to move to determine how I will move is pathetic.
C) You're a moron. What if I am not moving? What if I just finished a made 100 yard dash to get to cover. I think I can tell intutivly when I have recovered from such a dash without having to jog for a bit to see how fast I move.
D) You're an idiot. Firemode is not shown in anyway by sight. I'd like to know if a trigger pull will fire 1 bullet or many before firing.
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
Lol, allready 3 people pwn Harrm and he still fights.

He's right about that so many things you know just by playing, but a simple and always presented information about speed, stance and health AND the ROF (!) must be always visible.
As I explained in the pics it can be done so careful, that you think they is no HUD at all.

A full status info on key tap (score, or extra menu) with all the weapons'n'stuff you carry must be, like it takes time to check what you have on the vest, it takes time to push a key, look and close the info screen.
Also the health status with exact injury display should be, to allow you to check what injuries exactly you have to know what you are capable of doing in the next minutes.
But all the complex information don't have to be in the HUD all the time when you play.
 
Last edited:

Harrm

I am watching porns.
Oct 21, 2001
801
0
0
Porns
clanterritory.com
Psychomorph:
Lol, allready 3 people pwn Harrm and he still fights.

No. I am insulted by one person, and two other people add opinions on why they need to rely on a HUD. However, given the general lack of empathy and dispect for other people's opinions on this board, I am not suprised. Especially you psychomorph. It seems you have nothing better to do than troll my posts. And considering your posts in other threads, you dont exactly scream credibility.

And off-the-record; you type like a recovering crack addict.

A full status info on key tap

We are discussing a constant, "there-all-the-time" HUD.

In my opinon, a HUD is not realistic. The key to "realism" in a videogame is overcoming inaccuracies of playing a game, and trying to get it as close as possible to what is reality. We've already beaten into the ground that "a computer is not real life." But you have to simulate and enviroment similar enough to real life that you can "fool" a person into thinking that it is. We call this immersion.

ONE MORE TIME FOLKS:

A) You're an imbecile, but you got lucky on this one.
B) You're a nitwit. I can tell how I am standing with my eyes closed. This indicator also tells me if I am going to walk or jog when I start to move. Having to move to determine how I will move is pathetic.
C) You're a moron. What if I am not moving? What if I just finished a made 100 yard dash to get to cover. I think I can tell intutivly when I have recovered from such a dash without having to jog for a bit to see how fast I move.
D) You're an idiot. Firemode is not shown in anyway by sight. I'd like to know if a trigger pull will fire 1 bullet or many before firing.

A- Yeah. I get to spend my morning arguing with a bunch of faceless blowhards on an internet forum. I must have a horeshoe halo around my head.
B- The speed at which you are moving is obvious given two bits of information: the rate at which your footsteps hit the ground and the spacial determinate at which you are moving (how fast you see yourself moving). And you mean to tell me that if you stop for cover for only a few seconds and start moving again, that you cant rememeber at what speed you where moving when you got there? If so, you must have serious attention span issues.
C-Someone mentioned a rate-of-breathing sound to get around this.
D-The H+K Mp5 has it's selector switch on the left side of the gun; most other firearms follow this same trend. All soldiers in INF are currently modeled for the right handed position (because models or the left hand would require new models, animations, etc.). If modeled 100% accurately and kept in the same system, the fire selector would be visible. If you're still uppity about it, then while selecting firemodes the gun could tilt towards you or something.

--Harrm
 
Last edited:
Apr 11, 2002
796
0
16
Dallas, TX
www.google.com
B-And if I should sit still for more than ten seconds covering a defensive position on an EAS map? Another situation is I'm walking, a grenade lands near me, I hit the sprint key, and stop 'round the corner. My stance is now neither walk nor sprint, it is jog. Sometimes one forgets that bit in the panic of a fight.
C-My own breathing is quite quiet after running. Mostly what indicates that I can't run to much farther is the burning muscles in my legs, and even after jogging for a couple of miles, I can still summon up the strength for an all out sprint.
D-People don't flip the rifle over to adjust the selector switch. The HUD is a much more accurate way of displaying what we normally feel with our hands.

Move to Canada.
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
When I'm tired I breathe more, but that can't tell me how tired I am. Am I able to run further 100m, or am I allready down at 0%.

Seeing a ROF selector from above wont tell you the position, especially in case of some weapons.
An AKM has the selector on the other side and you cant just feel it with the thumb, nor with the trigger finger, this kind of selectors could have no icon in the HUD.

Moving speed... Demosthanese explained it allready.

Lets call the on screen info not Heads Up Display, maybe then it will sound more realistic :hmm: ?


Move to Canada.
 
Last edited:

flamingknives

New Member
Oct 23, 2004
40
0
0
Harrm said:
We've been over the possible answers to all of these, but I'll repeat myself:
A- You choose your loadout before you even start the mission.
What if I've set the game so I can pick up other weapons? Switching to another weapon? I wan't to be sure I've got the right one before it comes up.
B- Look at your screen. And if you cant tell, glance at the ground.
And if I'm too busy looking around so someone doesn't shoot me in the face? Next to an unfamiliar object?
C- The speed at which you move.
And if I'm not moving?
D- Preferably shown on the model while playing.
So I've got to look down at the weapon, taking my eyes off the surroundings (and the people sneaking up on me trying to shoot me in the face)?

In INF concept: The majority of the worlds' armies do not camp, hence the term "mobile war". In Iraq today, the standard protocol for US troops (at least those still in active combat, or formerly in active combat, like the 502nd, 503rd, etc.) is still squad-based patrol and mobile street-to-street fighting. Any stationary defended positions are, as a general practice, reduced to rubble by heavy weapons or supporting fire. This strategy came to light just days after the start of heavy street fighting, but it sort of died down after the PR got bad, and now it still happens; but takes a little bearaucracy to do.

--Harrm
Really? I've got maybe half an hour of footage that says they do. To cap it all, that footage probably covers an order of magnitude more time. For all but the most highly trained and motivated soldiers, there will be an inertia that makes them more apt to stay put. In the time it takes to call in an airstrike, an entire game of Inf would have gone by.
Soldiers still spend a significant portion of time down in the dirt.

When playing Inf, I generally don't use the HUD much, but it's handy for just flicking my eyes across to ascertain what my avatar is about to do. I don't use it to check health that much, but more to gauge how much stuff the avatar is carrying and how tired he is.
 

gal-z

New Member
May 20, 2003
420
0
0
Ramat-Hasharon, Israel
Visit site
I'm with Psychomorph on this.
Just wanted to add for compass and objectives, that you could add 0-1 bulk items that could be used - a compass and a map, and maybe even a little more bulky (1-2) GPS for those who REALLY have a hard time navigating and/or when the game includes REALLY big maps. Anyway having "useable" compass and map as items is a very good replacement for the current HUD compass, which is needed ATM to find objectives for people who don't know the map and to get around when u get lost, and you STILL get lost because you don't have a map (unless you know the map already).
 
Apr 21, 2003
2,274
2
38
Europe
@Harrm:
I´ve read my posts again and indeed sometimes it looks like I mean things have-to be the way I explain, but that's not how I mean it. I just mean it as contrapoints that can be discussed further. So I´m sorry.

The HUD explanation and pictures are not meant to be exactly that way. They are just examples I did in few seconds to explain my thoughts (since my typo sucks).

And you mean the full gear and health info that can be checked in a window is not what the thread is about, but when you want to have no HUD and don't give people the ability to get more info about their character, it will cause problems. For example, you have lots of loadouts and it's hard to know every detail about them (in RL you use your few weapons that you all check and strape/put separated on your vest/neck/helster before mission).
I allready hear the complaints when players need to go to the loadaout menu and click several times to reach your used loadout. When you don't want to have a HUD, you need a replacement.

And my typo sucks often, cuz often I type very fast and use simple grammar.


@gal-z:
I (personally/imo/humbly) thought about the compass actually beeing a real tool to grab and hold. I think a bit of intelligence would be used, cuz you can check the directions and note them. Like the sun is there and at the other side is west.
When the map is correct and you see the sun and you know it is morning you could tell where the east is without a compass.
The orientation would be important when mates give you enemy position directions you have to know.


I (personally/imo/humbly) have also a thought about a map. A map is a good thing, but it needs to be put out of the bag and so, that takes time.
On the other hand, every soldier had a briefing before and have an idea about the place, the mission directions and all that, but since it is all in his mind it is more of a simplified version of a map.
Ingame you could be able to fast check this mindmap. The looks of it wouldn't be like a real map, but like a blurry layout/outline, very simplified.
I know, the player could check the map and note himself, but the map can't replace a full briefing and preparation time of a real soldier.
This mind map could have an update system, like mates reported a specific area is clear and objective done, you would remind it.

This mindmap is very simple, it is meant as a help for the player, since it is sometimes to hard to orientate yourself in them ap and communication is not as effective.

The real map that you put out of the bag would be a fullscreen map, in every detail, where you could even mark points with the mouse. Holding mouse would draw a line. Pushing right mouse key, a cursor would appear and you could write on the map.
Maybe you could even give your drawing to other players as a report in so they can orientate (damn I allready imagine the weird things people will do with that feature :().

As you said, all the stuff (compass, map, GPS) would be items you have to select. That would be very good.


Sorry for the long post, will be over soon.


@Gear 'Status' Checking ingame:
As I said a way to open a window to check your loadout (+health) as you would in real life look down the vest to see ammo and so on, would be cool.

But it should behave more organic.
Means the primary rifle would be slightly seen from behind (as you see the rifle when it is slinged on the body, or you hold it in hands).
Since you see the magazines in the pouch, you see it from above (where the bullet is sticking out of the mag). Same you would see the mags.
Maybe even in a small pouch. So under the weapon icon you see few pouches with ammo in it (all fro mabove), when ammo is spend, the pouches are empty.
That would just require a good picture, or photo as a pic.

Same with the pistol, you see it from above, like it is in the holster (maybe even with a visible holster, and when the pistol is pulled/used they is no visible holster).

Cool would be if the pouche pictures would mach the color of your current vest. If you use a CQB urban SWAT type vest, it would be black. If you are an infantry soldier it would be green, could add something to the general feel).

My wish is just to make it more natural and 'organic', without all the digital numbers, codes, which makes all so flat.


I´m officially sorry for the long post.
 

keihaswarrior

New Member
Jan 7, 2003
1,376
0
0
42
Seattle
keihaswarrior.home.icq
There is no need for a mental map. There should be a briefing for the mission that players can call up at any time during the match.

There could even be a short planning session before the match starts where teams could coordinate their movements on an overhead map of the mission.
 
Apr 2, 2001
1,219
0
0
Frankfurt/ Germany
Visit site
One statement:

I agree replacing HUD by other means of giving the necessary info to the player would be nice:

- tilt the gun sideways and have a close look at the 'fire-mode-selcetor-switch' (or whaterver it's called) instead of the icon
- use breathing sound to (frequenzy and noiselevel) instead of stamina bar
... etc

All would add to atmosphere but to complexity of control and coding efforts as well. Dunno if it's realy worth it...

Get rid of HUD completely? No.
 

Derelan

Tracer Bullet
Jul 29, 2002
2,630
0
36
Toronto, Ontario
Visit site
ravens_hawk said:
Norway? More like Snoreway.
norway7yv.jpg



Anywho, playing without a HUD is lots of fun... when you're plastered. Besides, we can't get rid of the compass.