Mark Rein On The Pervasiveness of UT3 Piracy

[213]

I think we're arguing too much amongst ourselves here.

UT3 got rushed. It sucks. It's a pretty house on the insides, but the front door and entrances into the house are fugly, and in many cases don't function properly.

the boys at Epic think it's etter to produce for the consoles, let em do it. lol no use in any of us arguing over it or the reasons why. there's certainly no reason for us to argue the false facts / half truths that ppl like Mark Rein or any inter-news article writers put forth. They're spin doctors. Let em blow smoke up each other's asses for a while.

If you like UT3, play it online, learn the editor, tweak it until it works well enough for you to enjoy.

If not, like me, ignore it. Let it go on without you. Myself, I feel betrayed by a game company I trusted for years and let down big time. The more I read about Epic , Mark Rein, and Epic's plans for future games etc, the more I realize I won't be buying anything they make. I was never impressed by any of the Mortal Kombat games, and should have known better than to trust Midway as a publisher too.

I happen to love Steam too. It works great for me, and I've not had any problems with it, other than it seems to not like Xfire. I've yet to download a Valve game and be disappointed though. Technical issues and technical assumptions aside, I think the main point of Steam seems to show me that there is definitely something good to be said about developer-self publication!

Like someone reminded me earlier in this topic, indie companies pick up the slack in the PC gaming market. I'd bet most of the best, also self publish.

In short, I simply blame the publishers. They turn what should be an art form, into an advertising blitz of money-hungry hype machine of bullcrap and lapsed promises. It's when the developers start to believe their own hype machine and think it's ok to produce crap and call it gold, I turn my back on them too.

 

[Zur]

Because of all the poor, pitiful folks in poverty..., who also just happened to have kick-ass dual or quad core computers with expensive vid cards, and high-speed internet?

(well, I suppose you could google high-res vids on how to get several meals out of one potato, and how to make clothes out of burlap ).

Computers are actually a good investment. For someone relatively low on cash they can play the role of an entertainment system replacing a tv, games console, dvd player, etc.

 

[TheSomian]

console can do TV, games, etc. even cheaper but PC is better, of course

 

[Zur]

It is. I also forgot to mention you can use it as a phone, do your banking, work from home, edit videos and so on. Basically it's doing the job it's supposed to as a general purpose tool.

 

[Armagon917]

UT2003 felt like a small game? Weird. The gameplay was the big problem there. I guess UT3's problems are just more noticeable and annoying because they deal with getting into the game.

UT2K3 shipped with 50 plus levels and had five gametypes and plenty of character models close to 50 so I don't see how that constitutes a small game imo. I'm just curious what you would have needed to say its a decent sized game?

Edit: Actually that level quantity seems to high and I may actually have mixed up bonus pack levels with the actual shipping levels ... I think the number of levels that shipped was closer to 30 but still to me when I look at other games of this types that is far from a small amount of content ... but again that is just my feeling. I would like to understand why you think that is a small amount.

Guys I said it fealt like a small game. It wasn't small. The only thing I was really interested in was DM and thats why I made that statement. When compared to UT2004 after the bonus packs UT2003 right out of the box seems a bit small to me. I'm not bashing it and it was the game that finially got me off of Rocket Arena for Quake 3. I should have been more specific. But I'm not giving UT2003 a fair shake because UT2004 just eclipsed it and many other games in content so thats why I'm thinking of it a small when it was actually a decent amount of content on reflection.

As far as my statement on Crysis, Crytek semed to go out of their way to push things and bad design decisions were made. Things that could have used normal maps/parallax maps were modeled and you really couldn't tell the difference unless you went crouched down and analyzed it up close. Adding more polys to a game is fine but you have to expect that people with a decent machine having to lower their resolution and texture quality settings are going to be a bit annoyed. I like to run things at at least 1024X768 and not have my textures look like mud. Whats the point in their great engine if thats how people play it. So I believe that people were expecting this great graphical experience and ended up lowering setting to make it playable which resulted in it not living up to their expectations for that.

I have a pretty nice system e8500 core 2, 8800gt sli, 2g ddr2. I play it with high settings (no AA or AF) at 1280X1024 and still get my framerate hitting 25fps in some areas. I tried it on my old PC AMD X2 4800 7900GTX SLI and could barely play it. The game is what it is. Its a great game! It was one of the coolest games I've played in a while and Crytek really impressed me. But for them to not factor their steep system requirements into a game meant to push hardware into their sales is kind of like looking for your hat while your wearing it.

Here ya go.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art.../zeropunctuation/2808-Zero-Punctuation-Crysis

 

[Sir_Brizz]

What we were saying is that UT2004 is two games, so of course it's bigger than UT2003.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Actually theres probably more like 1.5-1.7 games worth of content, UT vs UT3 would be 2 whole games

 

[Armagon917]

I think we're arguing too much amongst ourselves here.

UT3 got rushed. It sucks. It's a pretty house on the insides, but the front door and entrances into the house are fugly, and in many cases don't function properly.

the boys at Epic think it's etter to produce for the consoles, let em do it. lol no use in any of us arguing over it or the reasons why. there's certainly no reason for us to argue the false facts / half truths that ppl like Mark Rein or any inter-news article writers put forth. They're spin doctors. Let em blow smoke up each other's asses for a while.

If you like UT3, play it online, learn the editor, tweak it until it works well enough for you to enjoy.

If not, like me, ignore it. Let it go on without you. Myself, I feel betrayed by a game company I trusted for years and let down big time. The more I read about Epic , Mark Rein, and Epic's plans for future games etc, the more I realize I won't be buying anything they make. I was never impressed by any of the Mortal Kombat games, and should have known better than to trust Midway as a publisher too.

I happen to love Steam too. It works great for me, and I've not had any problems with it, other than it seems to not like Xfire. I've yet to download a Valve game and be disappointed though. Technical issues and technical assumptions aside, I think the main point of Steam seems to show me that there is definitely something good to be said about developer-self publication!

Like someone reminded me earlier in this topic, indie companies pick up the slack in the PC gaming market. I'd bet most of the best, also self publish.

In short, I simply blame the publishers. They turn what should be an art form, into an advertising blitz of money-hungry hype machine of bullcrap and lapsed promises. It's when the developers start to believe their own hype machine and think it's ok to produce crap and call it gold, I turn my back on them too.

words of wisdom. I've been saying Steam is one of the best ideas in gaming ever for a while now that most issues with it have been worked out. I knew it had potential even from its rocky start. Now its badass.

Your view on EPIC is the exact one I hold. I'm still hoping they see their mistakes. As an environment artist I would really be fine with pay thats comfortable and have always been more concerned with the work then anything. My saying and what developers should go by. MAKE FANS NOT MONEY!! The money will then take care of itself. Cheer up though, we have Raven, Gearbox, Bethesda, Valve, Valve, Blizzard and id Software.

I think EPIC wants to be Bungie for a while. I just get that vibe and have nothing to back it up so feel free to flame that comment. I just see EPIC excited about having attention and a trilogy for GOW that seems to be replacing what Halo was for the previous uber trilogy. Thats what I see. I just wish they would have properly finished UT3 before they decided thats what they wanted to do. Ya know cause they kinda promised us that UT3 was going to be the best UT ever.

But its okay I'm out of my wanting to fight Cliffy B phase. JK
EDIT, you know what I mean.

 

[Armagon917]

What we were saying is that UT2004 is two games, so of course it's bigger than UT2003.

Anyways you were right on the content sizeage. Yeah I thought I noticed some maps were the same JK

 

[Grobut]

Because of all the poor, pitiful folks in poverty..., who also just happened to have kick-ass dual or quad core computers with expensive vid cards, and high-speed internet?

(well, I suppose you could google high-res vids on how to get several meals out of one potato, and how to make clothes out of burlap ).

In places like Russia, that is actually the backwards reallity of things, the problem is the exchange rate of the Rubel, its pants, so inorder to actually sell anything in Russia, you must be willing to lower the price to something Russians can afford.
Hardware vendors have been willing to do that apparently, since alot of Ruskies do have PC's, but the same is not true of games im told (i know a few Russians from the IL2 community), just one vid-game can easilly cost an entire months pay over there! more if you have a low paying job, thats just insane.. even i would have to stop buying games if they suddenly started costing an entire months pay, how about you?

That's why Warez is so popular in poor countries, thease people are not "poor" by Russian standards, but they are poor compared to us because of the exchange rate of their money, so when they are charged full western price for something (and they are when it comes to games), there is just no way they can afford it.

 

[R.Flagg]

What a load of crap.

 

[Zur]

There's a russian or two on these forums. Maybe they can confirm.

 

[Grobut]

What a load of crap.

Dont be daft, exchange rates are a cold hard reallity, its why when i go on vacation to a 3'rd world nation, then all of a sudden my meager average joe paycheck seems like a fortune! but if i where to travel to the UK for instance, my money would be worth practically nothing, and everything would seem unreasonably expensive because the GBP is worth alot more than the DKR.

Its also why DVD's have regional codes on them, in order to sell thease things in places like Asia, they need to sell them cheaper, at prices people here can afford.
But if they just did that, then nothing would stop me and other westerners from just importing all our games and movies from Asia, where they are cheaper to begin with, and the favorable exchange rate would make them even cheaper still! so they made damn sure that Asian copies wont work in my machinery, and i have to have a European copy for it to work.

But the old USSR used to be the enemy, it was a market we where barred from dealing with, and we have gotten quite used to making our money without that market.
Remnants of thease embargo's still exist to this day, as does the western market's disinterest in the market, there's no money here, so they are quite happy ignoring the market.

 

[hal]

Dont be daft, exchange rates are a cold hard reallity, its why when i go on vacation to a 3'rd world nation, then all of a sudden my meager average joe paycheck seems like a fortune!

You're surely not implying that Russia is a 3rd world nation... are you?

 

[Grobut]

You're surely not implying that Russia is a 3rd world nation... are you?

Well not to that degree, obviously, but their currency is worth practically nothing.

Currently $1 USD is worth 23.86 Rubels, that means $50 USD (a game costs about that) is worth 1192.86 Rubels.

Also, a quick look at google told me that the Average Russian paycheck is around $70 USD (thats 1670 Rubels), so buying games at our prices would infact be practically a full paycheck, you try living a month on 477.14 Rubels!

As i understand it, there is only one publisher in Russia (1c), and games they publish can be bought cheaper (but not cheap) in Russia, but there are tons more games that are never published there, and the only way to buy them would be to pay the full 50 bucks plus shipment for them, which most Russians cannot afford, hence piracy is very popular with Ivan.

 

[Emmet Otter]

Epic is run by a bunch of turdbrains! These asshats believe that by making a half-assed game will sell like hotcakes when its expected to give more than the previous series. Dont these idiots ever learn from past mistakes (UT2003) that you cant mess up with UT! You are supposed to 'build up' on what you've created and not 'dumb down' with less features. For epic, to make UT should'nt be rocket science anymore, they should'nt be trying to reinvent the wheel here, just add in more fetures on top of what you've already built up with prettier graphics. Bam, simple, make everyone happy! They've reached the 4th installment and they still can't get it right

There was a thread a while back which I cant find now, a person says that game devolpers are at fault with piracy. Make a crappy game focused too much around graphics with high system requirements and it just wont sell. A crap demo will spread like wildfire on the interent these days hindering sales. They have only themselves to blame!

Nice try Mark on trying to blame pirates on sale loss, now go back and smoke pole!

 

[_Lynx]

Hardware vendors have been willing to do that apparently, since alot of Ruskies do have PC's, but the same is not true of games im told (i know a few Russians from the IL2 community), just one vid-game can easilly cost an entire months pay over there! more if you have a low paying job, thats just insane...

Well I can hardly say for how things turn out outside Moscow and I know it's quite different, but still, I guess I have a better view of the picture. Hardware prices are mostly the same here, and certain hardware sometimes significantly more expensive then it costs f.e. in Germany, US or UK. As for games - thing are quite on contrary here to what you have described. A lot of western PC publishers understand that salaries here are much lower and they sell the games to local, Russian publishers, who would localize it and sell it here, for a much lower price. F.e. Orange Box here costs 450 roubles, which is 18.84$ or 12.2€. If you can afford an entry level gaming PC, you can definitely afford to buy a game or two once a month. And note that this is not an average price. AAA-tiles here are mostly sold for 350-400 roubles, less popular games are sold more cheaply.

Of course some measures are taken to avoid re-export of these, more cheap games back into Europe/US, f.e. removal of all languages except Russian, if there are few, or replacing English with Russian.

As for console market - games fopr Xbox 360/PS3 cost here more, then in US. For example, if you'll want to get Lost Odyssey in US, that will likely to cost you 59.99$. Here it will be 2199 roubles, which is 92.08$. Same is true for most of new games. GTAIV f.e. is sold for 2390 - 100.08$ or 65.30€ (guess 60€ is the price in most of Western Europe)

And just FYI UT3 and GoW were also published here, so if any of those gamers here who have the rig capable of running these games, wanted to play online, they definitely have enough money to buy the game too. Actually, if you can afford buying an entry-level gaming PC here, then you can afford to buy a couple of good games a month.

Also, a quick look at google told me that the Average Russian paycheck is around $70 USD (thats 1670 Rubels), so buying games at our prices would infact be practically a full paycheck, you try living a month on 477.14 Rubels!

Once again I cannot tell the exact numbers for the rest or Russia, but since here in Moscow, average pycheck is more around 12000 roubles, so for other regions that would be 5000 roubles. as for 1670 roubles - well, that's the size of the average size of pension here, so old people are really have problems living, if they have no one to care about them, and you definitely won't buy an entry-level gaming PC with that kind of paycheck.

As i understand it, there is only one publisher in Russia (1c), and games they publish can be bought cheaper (but not cheap) in Russia, but there are tons more games that are never published there, and the only way to buy them would be to pay the full 50 bucks plus shipment for them, which most Russians cannot afford, hence piracy is very popular with Ivan.

As for prices - check the above, as for choice of games - that was true about 3-4 years ago, nowdays pretty much every notable game is published here, because western publishers do understand, that if they won't sell the game to one of the publishers here, they won't get any money from here at all. And if they do, they'll get something at the least. Sometimes this "something" is a pretty big sum.

 

[Grobut]

3-4 years ago, nowdays pretty much every notable game is published here

I think that might be the crux of the matter, because my info is roughly 5-6 years old, it was around when IL2 was a new game and talk of the first expansion pack was just emerging.

But i am happy to hear things have gotten better on that front for you guys, it sounded like quite a bummer 5-6 years ago, and i didn't expect things to change that fast.

 

[hal]

Epic is run by a bunch of turdbrains!

Pipe down, seriously. Make a point, but lose the abrasive stuff.

 

[Emmet Otter]

Pipe down, seriously. Make a point, but lose the abrasive stuff.

No problem