Is there a God?
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DEMACORE
God is meant to be perfect, but he created the human being, who without sociaty to support it, is cruel and agressive. Man in society tends to be greedy and evil. Man is naturally this way, and seeing as God made us, he must have been the one to engender these traits into us. Free choice does not automatically mean those characteristics. How can a perfect beings creations not be perfect? That isn't logical.
Also, the devil is meant to have corrupted man. Why would God let this happen? If he's all powerful he COULD stop it. A test? Surely it is foolish to allow the devil to have so much influence with so little responce.
Its like a leaky tap. The tap drips (sin) onto the tiles below (man). You can wipe the water away (jesus) but the tap remains dripping. So the engineer (God) leaves a set of intructions on how to stop the leak (Bible) and then leaves to watch what happens. But then another engineer who wants the job trys to confuse people (Satan) and leaves other instuctions and ridicules the originals. The original engineer (i hate the word plumber) doesn't do anything to stop this.
Who is at fault. I wouldn't blame the people for there confusion with so many conflicting views. I would say the main blame is on the second engineer, with some fault falling at the feet of the first one. A perfect being is not meant to be at fault.
I think that analogy is logically correct, but please feel free to correct me...(me waits for TLD to appear.)
AGENT ORANGE
But the Bible is meant to be divinely inspired, plus it is the way God's word has survived. It does seem a little odd (to me) to discount any of it, unless you take the view that the writers of it SAID it was inspired by God directly, but were lying. Which then brings the validity of the entire document into suspicion.
CICED
God is meant to be perfect, but he created the human being, who without sociaty to support it, is cruel and agressive. Man in society tends to be greedy and evil. Man is naturally this way, and seeing as God made us, he must have been the one to engender these traits into us. Free choice does not automatically mean those characteristics. How can a perfect beings creations not be perfect? That isn't logical.
Also, the devil is meant to have corrupted man. Why would God let this happen? If he's all powerful he COULD stop it. A test? Surely it is foolish to allow the devil to have so much influence with so little responce.
Its like a leaky tap. The tap drips (sin) onto the tiles below (man). You can wipe the water away (jesus) but the tap remains dripping. So the engineer (God) leaves a set of intructions on how to stop the leak (Bible) and then leaves to watch what happens. But then another engineer who wants the job trys to confuse people (Satan) and leaves other instuctions and ridicules the originals. The original engineer (i hate the word plumber) doesn't do anything to stop this.
Who is at fault. I wouldn't blame the people for there confusion with so many conflicting views. I would say the main blame is on the second engineer, with some fault falling at the feet of the first one. A perfect being is not meant to be at fault.
I think that analogy is logically correct, but please feel free to correct me...(me waits for TLD to appear.)
AGENT ORANGE
But the Bible is meant to be divinely inspired, plus it is the way God's word has survived. It does seem a little odd (to me) to discount any of it, unless you take the view that the writers of it SAID it was inspired by God directly, but were lying. Which then brings the validity of the entire document into suspicion.
CICED
This is going to annoy ALOT of people
The bible might mean to of been divinely inspired but it is (allegedly) the word of god, but has been tranlated by man, which to me alters the perception of it. Also there is different versions of the bible which do have different meanings, so I do question the validity of it. I am not saying that there isnt alot of good stuff in there because there is, but with the very foundation of the book being questioned it does destabalise the content and then leads to the questions about what people truly believe.
The bible might mean to of been divinely inspired but it is (allegedly) the word of god, but has been tranlated by man, which to me alters the perception of it. Also there is different versions of the bible which do have different meanings, so I do question the validity of it. I am not saying that there isnt alot of good stuff in there because there is, but with the very foundation of the book being questioned it does destabalise the content and then leads to the questions about what people truly believe.
but if the only true word of God that exists is suspect then that challenges Christianity as a whole doesn't it?
And there is some highly suspect editing going on in that quote...
And there is some highly suspect editing going on in that quote...
Been away for a wee bit guyz, talking about guns in America with the INF forum. Finished now and thankfully Phoenix and TLD are putting in their 2 cents worth over there, so I won't have to.
You know this would be a good place to organise and send crack teams of POTATOE heathens and CHRISTIANS into other forums, seeing as how it is civilised in this thread.
Talk about Guns... You get flame wars.
Talk about God... You get peaceful conversation.
I will direct my attention towards the promised response TLD just as soon as I can.
Blessings upon you all from the mighty POTATOE. 
You know this would be a good place to organise and send crack teams of POTATOE heathens and CHRISTIANS into other forums, seeing as how it is civilised in this thread.
Talk about Guns... You get flame wars.
Talk about God... You get peaceful conversation.
I will direct my attention towards the promised response TLD just as soon as I can.
Blessings upon you all from the mighty POTATOE.
Originally posted by _Zd_Phoenix_
but if the only true word of God that exists is suspect then that challenges Christianity as a whole doesn't it?
And there is some highly suspect editing going on in that quote...
exactly! It challenges christianity without denying the existence of god.
Note: unedited quote! lol
Nothing denys the existance of God, they just suggest that he isn't real, and the Bible being questionalbe would add to these suggestions.
As I said before.....
And
And it has also been stated that....
You keep missing the point that God didn't create Man with an evil nature.(That cancels out the question of why God made Man imperfect.)
Man in his fallen state needs to be governed by the laws and rules of society but Man in his original state only needed God to say "don't do that,it will kill you". Man's true nature was not cruel or aggressive. You are refering to Man's sin nature when mention those kind of things, not Man as God created him. Your logic is based on not taking into account all of the info (that Christianity provides) when trying to formulate a legitimate question about Christian belief.
You ask why God didn't stop the devil? Why should God have stopped the devil when it was Man's responsability to do it. Man was given his instructions and athority over all of the Earth. God equiped Man with everything he needed to take care of business including the power to kick that talking serpent out of the garden as soon as it started smooth talking his wife. Let me put it this way: The Government gives you a license to kill and all the fire power you need to take care of any common threat to your family. Some rapest decides to try his luck with your wife and sneeks into your house. Unfortunatily for your wife, you stand there like some turd, watching her get assulted instead of using the power invested in you to bust a cap in his sorry behind. Then afterward you ask "Well why didn't the government do something?" In effect, they did by giving you the power to handle your business.
Now your analogy doesn't track for a few reasons.
"Its like a leaky tap. The tap drips (sin) onto the tiles below (man). "
This doesn't work because the tap was fine until man turned it on full blast.
"You can wipe the water away (jesus) but the tap remains dripping. "
Jesus actually doesn't merely wipe the tile clean but reforges(recasts) the tile and removes it from the source of contamination altogether. And besides, man isn't some helpless tile just sitting there with no choice but any way....
"So the engineer (God) leaves a set of intructions on how to stop the leak (Bible) and then leaves to watch what happens."
Actually it would be more like "God leaves a set of instructions on how to live free of the contaminating drip as well as what the drip does and why it's not a good thing to let it drip on you."
"But then another engineer who wants the job trys to confuse people (Satan) and leaves other instuctions and ridicules the originals."
Satan is more like the guy who had a job but got fired after he contaminated the water in the first place. God says don't turn on that tap because if you do you'll be destroyed. Man instead desides to listen to the fired guy and turns the tap on anyway.
" The original engineer (i hate the word plumber) doesn't do anything to stop this."
Sure He did by first saying "don't turn on the tap because it will kill you" and second making it possible to live free of the drip after the fact.
And
And it has also been stated that....
You keep missing the point that God didn't create Man with an evil nature.(That cancels out the question of why God made Man imperfect.)
Man in his fallen state needs to be governed by the laws and rules of society but Man in his original state only needed God to say "don't do that,it will kill you". Man's true nature was not cruel or aggressive. You are refering to Man's sin nature when mention those kind of things, not Man as God created him. Your logic is based on not taking into account all of the info (that Christianity provides) when trying to formulate a legitimate question about Christian belief.
You ask why God didn't stop the devil? Why should God have stopped the devil when it was Man's responsability to do it. Man was given his instructions and athority over all of the Earth. God equiped Man with everything he needed to take care of business including the power to kick that talking serpent out of the garden as soon as it started smooth talking his wife. Let me put it this way: The Government gives you a license to kill and all the fire power you need to take care of any common threat to your family. Some rapest decides to try his luck with your wife and sneeks into your house. Unfortunatily for your wife, you stand there like some turd, watching her get assulted instead of using the power invested in you to bust a cap in his sorry behind. Then afterward you ask "Well why didn't the government do something?" In effect, they did by giving you the power to handle your business.
Now your analogy doesn't track for a few reasons.
"Its like a leaky tap. The tap drips (sin) onto the tiles below (man). "
This doesn't work because the tap was fine until man turned it on full blast.
"You can wipe the water away (jesus) but the tap remains dripping. "
Jesus actually doesn't merely wipe the tile clean but reforges(recasts) the tile and removes it from the source of contamination altogether. And besides, man isn't some helpless tile just sitting there with no choice but any way....
"So the engineer (God) leaves a set of intructions on how to stop the leak (Bible) and then leaves to watch what happens."
Actually it would be more like "God leaves a set of instructions on how to live free of the contaminating drip as well as what the drip does and why it's not a good thing to let it drip on you."
"But then another engineer who wants the job trys to confuse people (Satan) and leaves other instuctions and ridicules the originals."
Satan is more like the guy who had a job but got fired after he contaminated the water in the first place. God says don't turn on that tap because if you do you'll be destroyed. Man instead desides to listen to the fired guy and turns the tap on anyway.
" The original engineer (i hate the word plumber) doesn't do anything to stop this."
Sure He did by first saying "don't turn on the tap because it will kill you" and second making it possible to live free of the drip after the fact.
Re: As I said before.....
No, you miss the point that this is a debate, and I don't neccessarily share your views on such points, so you cannot anull my previous question without explaining why you say God didn't create evil (TLD, if you could repost that stuff so I can find it I'd be very grateful
Oh, you did. But when did man 'fall'? Eden. The devil convinced Eve, who was naive, to eat the apple. When confronted by two influences, the voice of good and the voice of evil, which do you follow? I don't see why it is Adam or Eve's fault that the devil was too strong for them to resist.
I dont see anywhere in Genesis where it says they had that power in Eden.
And that was an amazingly bad analogy. Firstly, I don't live in the US, and am very opposed to guns, which takes all of this firepower rubbish out of the equation. Secondly, the government IS NOT meant to be all powerful and omnipotent.
If God was all powerful and omnipotent, he would easily be able to stop the devil and destroy him, instead of letting him subvert his children. So what the hell was God doing?
Go could have stopped it.
Well i disagree. Man has the devil constantly persuading him to do wrong things. Where is God? Where is his influence? It's all well and good leaving the instuctions, but when the devil creates other instuctions, how are we meant to choose?
ERRRRRRM ok.......
But man doesn't know satan turned the tap on unless they believe the original instructions over the others. And there is no real logical reason to do that without the intervention of the original engineer. Who won't intervien.
Maybe so, but that was 2000 years ago when no one from this time can be helped. And what has he done to stop the devil's apparent influences? nothing. If you have a warning sign telling people not to go onto a beach, and a man dressed up as a lifeguard who tells you it's ok, some people will believe the man.
Without removing Satan, it is God's fault that he has tainted the human race, which means he is not perfect, which in turn contradicts the Bible, and if the Bible is wrong it casts doubt on the entire Christian faith as it is the only link to God there is.
No, you miss the point that this is a debate, and I don't neccessarily share your views on such points, so you cannot anull my previous question without explaining why you say God didn't create evil (TLD, if you could repost that stuff so I can find it I'd be very grateful
Oh, you did. But when did man 'fall'? Eden. The devil convinced Eve, who was naive, to eat the apple. When confronted by two influences, the voice of good and the voice of evil, which do you follow? I don't see why it is Adam or Eve's fault that the devil was too strong for them to resist.
I dont see anywhere in Genesis where it says they had that power in Eden.
And that was an amazingly bad analogy. Firstly, I don't live in the US, and am very opposed to guns, which takes all of this firepower rubbish out of the equation. Secondly, the government IS NOT meant to be all powerful and omnipotent.
If God was all powerful and omnipotent, he would easily be able to stop the devil and destroy him, instead of letting him subvert his children. So what the hell was God doing?
Go could have stopped it.
Well i disagree. Man has the devil constantly persuading him to do wrong things. Where is God? Where is his influence? It's all well and good leaving the instuctions, but when the devil creates other instuctions, how are we meant to choose?
ERRRRRRM ok.......
But man doesn't know satan turned the tap on unless they believe the original instructions over the others. And there is no real logical reason to do that without the intervention of the original engineer. Who won't intervien.
Maybe so, but that was 2000 years ago when no one from this time can be helped. And what has he done to stop the devil's apparent influences? nothing. If you have a warning sign telling people not to go onto a beach, and a man dressed up as a lifeguard who tells you it's ok, some people will believe the man.
Without removing Satan, it is God's fault that he has tainted the human race, which means he is not perfect, which in turn contradicts the Bible, and if the Bible is wrong it casts doubt on the entire Christian faith as it is the only link to God there is.
Originally posted by TTRStryker8
oh for gods sake, why bump this??
lol, just when I was getting my life back together after an arguement free week
Wow, that's a first on here.....
Wow Wot a tpic to think about!
Wow Wot a tpic to think about!
of course there is no god wot kind of question is that.
if he existed then why all the suffering? and dont tell me its the devil cause if it was then it looks like the devil is winning
Wow Wot a tpic to think about!
of course there is no god wot kind of question is that.
if he existed then why all the suffering? and dont tell me its the devil cause if it was then it looks like the devil is winning
A question that's been argued about for 47 pages
Christians believe that the Fall introduced suffering into the world. If that's so it's terribly unfair; men get to complain about weeds in the garden and struggling to grow food, while women have to suffer during childbirth.
How can a few measly weeds be equivalent to days of excruciating pain and possibly death?
Perhaps that's proof that God is male after all
actually it's only page 46. i misread the page number...
answer to riddle: a Dead and Decomposing Person
answer to riddle: a Dead and Decomposing Person
Hmm... here's a good addition to this thread:
The Bloodhound Gang
"Hell Yeah"
Alright now boys and girls we've got another story for you now!
We want to introduce to you another friend of the Bible!
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
If I were God there would be no explicit sex on T.V.
Like little Opie eating pie when he made it with Aunt Bea
If I were God thou shall not worship false Billy Idols
And thou shall add the Book Of Flavor Flav to the Bible
Thou shall make fun of Hindus thou shall not make a "Speed 2"
If I were God that's what I'd do Heavens no
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
If I were God I'd get a bunch of slaves to do everything
Norwegian lesbians that feed me grapes and know how to sing
If I were God thou shall not wear tube socks with Flip-Flops
Thou shall sit and thou shall spin thou shall even wife swap
Thou shall resist the Olsen Twins thou shall not cut "Footloose"
If I were God that's what I'd do Heavens no
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
And when they nail my pimpled ass to the cross
I'll tell them I found Jesus that should throw them off
He goes by the name Jesus and steals hubcaps from cars
Oh Jesus can I borrow your crowbar?
To pry these God damn nails out they're beginning to hurt
Crucified and all I got was this lousy tee shirt
"I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!" I'll sing as I'm flogged
Yeah that's what I would do if I were God
So vote for me for Savior and you'll go to Heaven
Your lame duck Lord is like Kevin Spacey in "Seven"
With creepy threats of H-E-Double-Hockey-Stick
You just can't teach an old God new tricks
But would I be a good Messiah with my low self-esteem?
If I don't believe in myself would that be blasphemy?
Just sport some crummy "holier than thou" facade
Yeah that's what I would do if I were God
BTW: pronounce Jesus as Hey-suess
As screwed up as this is, it's definately funny... just like the rest of their stuff.
The Bloodhound Gang
"Hell Yeah"
Alright now boys and girls we've got another story for you now!
We want to introduce to you another friend of the Bible!
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
If I were God there would be no explicit sex on T.V.
Like little Opie eating pie when he made it with Aunt Bea
If I were God thou shall not worship false Billy Idols
And thou shall add the Book Of Flavor Flav to the Bible
Thou shall make fun of Hindus thou shall not make a "Speed 2"
If I were God that's what I'd do Heavens no
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
If I were God I'd get a bunch of slaves to do everything
Norwegian lesbians that feed me grapes and know how to sing
If I were God thou shall not wear tube socks with Flip-Flops
Thou shall sit and thou shall spin thou shall even wife swap
Thou shall resist the Olsen Twins thou shall not cut "Footloose"
If I were God that's what I'd do Heavens no
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
Hell yeah
And when they nail my pimpled ass to the cross
I'll tell them I found Jesus that should throw them off
He goes by the name Jesus and steals hubcaps from cars
Oh Jesus can I borrow your crowbar?
To pry these God damn nails out they're beginning to hurt
Crucified and all I got was this lousy tee shirt
"I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!" I'll sing as I'm flogged
Yeah that's what I would do if I were God
So vote for me for Savior and you'll go to Heaven
Your lame duck Lord is like Kevin Spacey in "Seven"
With creepy threats of H-E-Double-Hockey-Stick
You just can't teach an old God new tricks
But would I be a good Messiah with my low self-esteem?
If I don't believe in myself would that be blasphemy?
Just sport some crummy "holier than thou" facade
Yeah that's what I would do if I were God
BTW: pronounce Jesus as Hey-suess
As screwed up as this is, it's definately funny... just like the rest of their stuff.
It was killed off, but we hadn't finished argueing. And I still haven't, I'm just waiting for replies from Demacore, TLD and maybe Thrakhath.
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