Infantry vs. CQB

[Psychomorph]

Infiltration is a military infantry simulation, but to be honest mostly it is infantry CQB with SF/CT/CQB/Carabine weapons.

1. Infantry:
I personally would like to keep infantry thing as it is the core of INF, but then I would liek to see the soliers actually using full sized rifles, less pistols, and open infantry style maps.

2. CQB:
On the other hand I always was into CT games like Rogue Spear and SWAT3 and after palying INF_Archives in INF I know exactly why.
Thats why I would wish having the ability to set SF/CT style gamepaly in INF (military CT of course, no SWAT). It can be palyed with normal infantry maps, but some special small CQB/Urban maps would be the core of that mode.

I mean it is not that hard.
- Look at the SF's, they have the standart military suit, but just carry black vests and pouchvests, with black gloves. They carry those black crisat helmets and the safety googles. They use carabines and sideguns (with flashlights sometimes).
The emphasis of this characters would be fast CQB.
- The Infantry has the standart military suit too, but uses cammoflaged vests, green or no gloves, the helmep with a camoflaged cloth. Use full sized rifles and so on.
The emphasis is on infantry style gameplay.

Of course the infantry trains and experience CQB situations, always, nowadays urban fighting is mostly the case, but the SF's/CT's would be really into the CQB stuff primary.
The difference of the SF's toward the infantry would be the armory, the looks (more SWAT like looks), the gamepaly, the specialized maps.

As said in the INF Coop thready I would like the SF beeing more a coop thingy (but of course also a fast TDM with small teams and lot of CQB tactics) and the infantry more of playerVSplayer thing.


I love games like Rogue Spear and SWAT3 and I love inf beeing an 'infantry/crawling in dirt' thing. But I wouldn't like to miss both.
They are CQB games out there, but lets be honest, they all literally suck all together.
INF is the single and actually last chance to experience more realistic gaming and I would love to having it combining infantry with CQB.

 

[yurch]

What?

 

[Derelan]

He hadn't written one of those "few hundred word" posts in quite a while actually...




373 to be precise...

 

[Pipe_Dream]

I hate Toronto, Ontario

 

[Psychomorph]

Ok for you who think a bit slow I explain it.

The current INF is mostly nothing more than playng as infantry soldiers that carry CQB/SF weapons and equipment (thats why I liked INF2.86 very much, it felt like real infantry).

To make the infantry thing right, mostly full sized rifles have to be used, mostly no sideguns, less flashbangs and so on.

Players will start to cry fast: 'Meh, I want teh G36K with flashlight and teh suppressor'.

To give them their toys the soldier have to be some sort of Delta Force (if U.S.) CQB unit. They use sideguns, carabines, nice weapon modifications.
BUT those units do not look like regular infantry men, because they aren't, still military, but different. They look different, because they wear black crisat helmets, black vests, use flashbangs (not really frag grenades). They look more like military SWAT.


So, make INF infantry only, or include the SF force (with it's unique armory) to keep things realistic (the latter I would prefer).



To be precise, they are 3 military type units:

1. Regular Infantry:
- Kevlar vests, helmets
- Full sized rifles
- Explosive grenades
- Grenade launchers
- Mostly no flashbangs, flashlights, sideguns, ...

2. Special Forces:
- Boonie hats, or caps
- Full sized rifles but also carabines
- Sideguns
- Explosive grenades
- Grenade launchers
- No kevlar vests, no helmets

3. CQB Units (SF):
- Kevlar vests, helmets
- Carabines/SMG's mostly, but also fullsized rifles
- Sideguns
- Flashbangs
- Flashlights and other modifications
- No explosive grenades and no grenade launchers

Point 1 and 3 would be nice, since they are very different. They is no problem to include point 2 too, but it requires a proper game mode which is the main problem with 2.


Understand now? If you want all the nice weapon customizations and carabines, include the force that uses em. Otherwise keep the infantry clean.

 

[Psychomorph]

Here the U.S. forces as example.

Normal Infantry:

Special Forces (SpecOps):

Special Forces (CQB):

 

[Derelan]

To the soldier that gets off on putting his muzzle next to some guys ear; that would suck if he fired.

 

[Psychomorph]

If we look at INF we see that the 3 above explained military types are allready presented in INF.
You can take a vest, helmet, nades and fullsized rifle and you have the infantry. Take a boonie cap, rifle, nades and clay mines and you have the SF that crawl in the woods. Take a helmet, vest, carabine+attachments, sidegun and flashbangs and you have the CQB unit.

All what I ask for is the right setting and the right looks.
The deltas need another helmet model attachment and a black vest and handgloves skin. The jungle SF's would have the same suit like infantry, just no vest and boonie hat instead helmet.
The same palyer modle could be used, just create different attachments and their skins.

The more important part would be the setting. The infantry should use their fullsized rifles and if realistic carabines too (U.S. with their M4A1) and attachments. The SF's when on a outside jungle/wood mission would use normal rifles too. SF's beeing on a CQB mission will be able to use the carabines with more attachments and a different loadaout at all.

They need to be limitations to create more serious settings and all that should have the right looks.

 

[Crowze]

Talk to the server admins. They can already use WeaponSetup to limit the equipment used on a global or per-map basis.

And it's carbine.

 

[Nukeproof]

To the soldier that gets off on putting his muzzle next to some guys ear; that would suck if he fired.

Maybe he is deaf already and thereby the official human bipod of the company...

 

[Psychomorph]

Talk to the server admins. They can already use WeaponSetup to limit the equipment used on a global or per-map basis.

I doubt somebody want to have their favorite toys restricted or so.
Who knows, maybe someone is interessted in having a created setting with, for example, US (M16, M4, SAW, tiger stripe skin) and Iraqis (AKM, AKMSU).
I should make thread in the online section.

I rather speak about the future of INF. I´m not against the total free loadout like it's the case now, but they should be also more realisic settings in the next INF (like CQB unit with small maps, SF's with a large coop mission-planting a bomb, or sabotaging, and infantry mission baised TDM-playervs.player).

And it's carbine.

Oh I was confusing it with the german 'Karabiner'. Thanks for the correction.

---

It would be awesome to find servers. One 16 vs. 16 Infantry server. Another SF 6-player server with a co-op top secret mission. And another server CQB SF 6 vs. 6 (or 6 on co-op) with smaller urban maps.

 

[jayhova]

Maybe we could have a mutator that asigned countries to camos. You could even have irregular non-camos to represent insurgent fighters and the like. The mutator might give presidence on who got elected squad leaded based on team efficentcy etc. The basic idea is somewhat like games like RO where you bid for a role and the roles are either asigned automaticly by the mutator or by the squad leader. In an eight man squad there might be 2 fire teams but this would depend on the nationality of the team what weapons would be asigned and how the team would be organized. You could take this up to any level of realism you like. For instance you could limit radio comms to those who would actually have radios in the field, silent communication would be line of site only, whisper would be close quarters (and might give you away if an enemy is close enough) shouts can be hear by all (within range) e.g. unknown say's Flank right. You could even have a mutator that translates the langage for the other team. That is to say if you happen to know how to say "flank right" in russian. The main thing of course is that soldier roles would be asigned the correct weapons just as in RO and other "realistic combat" mods

 

[Psychomorph]

Why not could be fun. Actually I never played really a structured game in INF (except the whole team agreed in useing one type of a rifle [M16], which just rocked, the other had AKM's, Awesome!).
The problem is the way some weapons behave in INF. Germans with G36K's, many can't, or don't want to handle this gun.


Exact armies and exact locations could be fun, but that is even not what I really aim toward.
The fictional army could fight it's fictional war and various rifles could be allowed, BUT it should stay infantry or SF, or whatever, not totally mixed up into a soup of firearms.

For example:
Server restricition;
The server limits you to have a IIIa vest and a helmet. No balaklava, sidegun only for sniper and marksman.
Allowed to freely chose;
What type of assaultrifle/sniperrifle/machinegun/grenadelauncher you choose is your decision. What attachments you choose (only which infantry uses) and how much ammo you carry is your decision. What grenade types and how much you carry is your decision.

You have your decision (firearm selection is more important than choosing wearing, or not wearing armor), but the small server restriction creates a real infantry squad.

When you want to have a delta force CQB squad. The skin/model should look like a CQB unit.
Server restricition;
The server restricts you in having a balaklava, helmet, IIIa vest, no grenadelaunchers, no scopes, maybe no frag nades.
Allowed to freely chose;
Carbines and SMG's are allowed, decide what you choose. Sideguns are allowed, grenade types and attachments like flashlights and silencer are allowed. And allows snipers.

A top secred SF mission (crawling in dirt) can be like that:
Server restricition;
No vest, no helmet, no SMG's.
Allowed to freely chose;
Choose headgear like boonie hat, rag, or cap. Choose your primary weapon, chose sidegun, chose all types of grenades, grenade launchers, claymore mines. Sniper users.


You would be able to chose what you want, but they are small restrictions that creates a situation, a game type.

 

[Harrm]

1- We officially dont have a Delta anymore. It was disbanded in '93/'94.
2- Those are mostly pics of training, except the Delta guy who is, of course, a doll. Most SpecOps aren't bound to the weapons they train with when deployed.
3- Those are SEALs you have under special forces, and I'm 90% sure the guys in the other pic aren't green barets. I think you mean "SpecOps" in which case #2 applies.
4- The M4 didn't enter service until 1995. Delta used the M4-esque M733.

--Harrm

 

[Psychomorph]

The deltas were just an example feel free to add whatever you want instead 'delta'. They are also non U.S. forces.

This is not a doll I´m sure, he looks to life like and why are his eyes distorted then? I´m sure it's not a real Delta operative.

As said those pics are examples and yes, SpecOps is indeed the better therm for #2.
The pics should just give a visual idea of what I mean, of the differences between the forces and small differences/varieties in their armory and how it could/should be implemented in the game.

 

[OUND]

I like it, it's about time there was a player model with more than just ALICE gear or the sundry headgear.

 

[Psychomorph]

Inf represents multi-faceted combat, whether it is geared towards special operations or regular army, which you guys will see as subsequent versions appear.

:tup:

 

[keihaswarrior]

The more INF tries to generalize, the more realism and immersion it loses IMO. I want to know who I am when I play and where I am fighting instead of the: "Generic soldier fights in 'Iraq' against guys wearing green camo and armed with the entire INF armory."

So I disagree with trying to do it all (Leg Infantry, Rangers, SF, Delta, SAS, etc.) Just pick one!

 

[cracwhore]

Well - I suppose Harrm just forgot the 'minor detail' - so I'll explain.

It's the policy of Homeland Security, that we pixelate the faces of our mannequins.

 

[Psychomorph]

@keihaswarrior:
While I´m not extreme about that, I too like having the situation very real and I hope to find it in the next INF often enough.

But at least I would be fine with a free weapon choice aslong the firearms define Infantry when it is an infantry map/game/server.

I really dislike in the current INF seeing all the SWAT guys with MP5's, all the Rangers with cappies and M4's, all the infantry guys with Uzi's, the SpecOps with silenced Mk23's and all fight toghether agains similar guys, I hate it.

I need at least to see the team beeing pure infantry, pure CQB, or pure SpecOps. When it is mixed, than the way it is in real life (in the team most infantry and a small unit of CQB-SF, or SpecOps).

And I would find it pitty to make INF pure infantry. What a fun it can be to crawl in wet dirt as a SpecOps (my favorite), or having some specialized CQB with sideguns and flashbangs (I would miss it). Same as I like pure mass infantry.
I can't really choose between them, but when it would come to the question, I would choose infantry, because infantry works the best with a 'human player versus human player' thing.