How many guns do you own?

[Ford Scrote]

!!
a) very clever use of my name m8 - you're obviously very witty - for an eejit.

And why do you own guns as a defence m8? cos the fecker breaking into your house is likely to have one - not so in the UK. and, oh - we have a lower death by guns rate than you - you really know how to dig yourself in deeper don't you. talk about going round in circles. if you have one then so will the next person etc. if i don't then neither will the next.

Again, you miss the point entirely. Of course guns and crime are connected. you're cuntry has one of the highest crime rates in the civilised world and mine? one of the lowest - the difference. hmmm, let me think - guns!

make guns illegal - you make things more difficult. that's the point. and the fact is that anyone who has one can be arrested. that kinda cuts down on things. as proven in the UK.

And don't patronise me and my f*ucking country. We civilised your country into existence. By claiming your so called right to own a gun, you threaten my right to existence because the sole purpose of a gun is to destroy. If you're talking about rights, then where's my right to murder anyone i want? taken away. where's my right to steal? taken away. because they affect other ppl. you owning a gun affects me and the rest of society. if no one owned a gun then there would be a hell of a lot less gun violence.

where does it stop? do you have the right to own an uzi cos it gives you a sense of power? a bazooka? a nuclear weapon? by your standards - the answer is yet, and that's bullsh*t!

Admittedly i was deliberately provocative (obviously that missed you) in my last post but you've done yourself and sadly your country a dishonour in your last post. i wasn't getting on my high horse, i was trying to ask a genuine question and got some (not unexpected) xenophobic bollocks in return.

FS

 

[L_S]

Okay I admit I made that little British comment to get under your skin hehe, sorry. I like getting people riled up *evil grin* And YOU set your self up with the name "Scrote" hehe.

I admit my country is f*cked up in some regards, and alot of things happen here that I'm not proud of.
Our countries are very different, and the fact that guns are allowed here, and not there has nothing to do with crime. A gun is an inanimate object made of wood and metal, it has no control over a person (unless you have some sort of magical guns over in Britain). To outlaw guns, would be to cut down the weed, but leave the roots, only to have the weed grow right back. We have to kill the root. I'm not saying I know how to solve the problem, but taking my guns away from me would not do a damm thing, other than leaving me defenseless. Bad people do bad things, guns or no guns. And b*llsh*t if you think that criminals in America would have a problem getting guns.

One last thing, I read somewhere once that when a citizen turns 18 in Sweden they are issued a machine gun, because they dont have an army, and the crime rate there is very low too. I'll do some digging and see if I can find this info.

[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-14-2000).]

 

[L_S]

http://www.nraila.org/show.cgi?page=/research/19990728-InternationalGunControl-001.html

I highly suggest you go here and read the facts. Here is just a snippet,
" And then there is Switzerland, where the laws are similar to those in Israel and gun availability is comparable to that in the U.S. In Switzerland, handgun licenses are available to any law-abiding applicant. In half the Swiss cantons (similar to U.S. states), licensees are free to carry their personal handguns concealed. Beyond this freedom of ownership, every law-abiding military-age Swiss male is issued a firearm and he must keep it at home to perform his mandatory militia obligation."
................................................
"That honor goes to Israel where, nevertheless, murder "rates are much lower than in the United States despite ... [Israel's] greater availability of guns to law-abiding civilians," writes Israeli judge Abraham Tennenbaum (formerly an official with the Israeli National Police and then a professor of criminology)."

Are you familiar with the term "booyah"?


[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-14-2000).]

 

[Eliwar]

I think that Ford Scrote is just cranky because he can't getting any guns legally.

FS's #2 question response:

I think that one of the reason why banning guns aren't popular in other countries is that it would be harder to enforce than in Britain. Britain is small and they way it's government is set up, it has a little more power over its general population. Us American have tried to make our government as small as possible that way we have more privacy. If we had a lager govt. it would be easier for them to get in our homes to check for weapons.

In our society, what is banned gets smuggled in and somehow into the hands of the citizens. Take prohibition in the '20s; it started the how mob thing in Chicago. Well not started, but make it really profitable to supply the booze. The same thing would happen with guns. And sinse our people have a strong belief that we all should be able to own guns, there would be more people getting their guns illegally just in spite of the govt. Just so they could say "Haha, you can't control us!"

In the end to ban would probably be lifted and we would have wasted billions in trying to enforce the ban. Thus, in the end, it would not be worth it in America. Give us more time, say 50-100 years, we'll have much less guns.

"What's your major malfunction numbnuts!
Didn't Mommy or Daddy hold you enough when you were a child?!"
*Blam* -FMJ

 

[UpYours]

Say what you want about the US...but England has ****ed up so many things I cant even keep count....jeeesh....this is what we get for being an ally?
We have a different, larger and much more complex society here dumbass...with alot more going on than England could even imagine...much more complicated here...you dont just snap your fingers with some kind of idealism and say that will make all the problems go away idiot.
The very nature of our freedoms demands the right to protect them from internal as well as external entities...as well as hunting which is very popular here.
The right to bear and keep arms is in our very constitution and its only because of a strong miltary that we are free today and you too ..ungrateful *******. You'd be German today without us and our guns...jeeesh.(spits)
You guys that stereotype this country really piss me off...go get your South Africa and Ireland problems resolved..then come talk to us.(spits again)

 

[Eliwar]

Whoa now, don't need to be bashing in the heads of our British friends. We're just discussing they different mentalities that people have about firearms, not looking down one anyone who is not American. So ease off.

"What's your major malfunction numbnuts!
Didn't Mommy or Daddy hold you enough when you were a child?!"
*Blam* -FMJ

 

[UpYours]

Umm..I'm actually a really nice guy. Just dont appreciate other countries taking cheap shots at the US...Ive been thru these type of threads at Unreality and everybody is so quick to condem the US because of it's freedoms...freedoms which have their drawbacks at time..such as the right to bear arms. Each country/nation has it's own problems that they have diffculty in controlling. I dont run down other countries or govts (no matter what you think) and dont like people doing it to mine. I was in Sicily for 3 yrs and never once tried to tell them how to do anything or they should be like us or whatever.

And Chryst..my posts rarely contain expletive remarks..only when I get a little pissed off...go back 2 years ago here and read them all..if you wanna say something like that.

 

[CHRYSt]

Just rufflin yer feathers /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif

"Where's the BACTINE?! Some of this blood is MINE!!" -- JTHM

 

[Ford Scrote]

At last a more rational and factual discussion ! (OFUY excluded whose racist comments i shall largely ignore except to say that unfortunately that attitude is why so many ppl dislike Americans - because of a perceived 'we're better than you attitude'. Is it any wonder ppl stereotype your country when ppl like you make such banal comments? However, it's nice to see that other ppl are able to debate at a more intellectual level than you seem capable of)

I started debating on this topic with an open mind. Admittedly I don't like guns but i've never owned one. My evidence shows that gun crime in the UK has dropped dramatically since handguns were banned. And guns are not banned in the US where gun crime is high (the highest in the world?). However, there is obviously additional evidence which suggests that the banning of guns and gun crime are not necessarily connected. Education has been suggested as the key. But I'm not sure how - unless your education system is that bad that it doesn't even instill basic moral principles (such as you don't shoot ppl)? Again, a genuine question.

A gun may be an inanimate object and it is the person who holds it who does the harm (in a sense) But by the same token, if the person hasn't got a gun to hold, then they're going to struggle to shoot someone.

To address the point about your constitutional right about gun ownership - I think (and realise I may be being sacreligious here!) that your constution is wrong on this point. That part at least, was written 200 years ago. it's out of date and things that don't change, tend to die. Just my opinion - which I believe I'm entitled to under your constitution /~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif

But I'm getting a better idea of why ppl might want to own guns - which was the whole point of me getting involved in this thread - not to listen to jingoistic rhetoric.

FS

P.S. Just in case you think there are like 10 ppl living in the UK, there's 65 million of us! - a fair few
P.P.S. I'm reading the web address you provided LS. Interesting stuff, but then again it's the NRA's web site - so you'd expect them to find information to support their cause. No doubt there are anti-gun associations who can produce evidence to the contrary. But at least I'll have had both sides points of view.

Smile! it might not happen and you might get a shag instead.


[This message has been edited by Ford Scrote (edited 02-15-2000).]

 

[Voyd-]

oh for the love of god LS how the HELL can anyone say guns done contribute to crime? geezus. thats the stupidest comment ive ever seen! what is the easiest way to do a crime, or kill someone? yes, a gun. when u can go to your "local gunshop" and just buy one, then there are a incredible amount of people who can buy one for evil purposes.

nobody has said that the act of owning a gun for personal reasons such as safety is wrong per say, but the mere fact that ANYONE can freely have a gun and carry it around in a materialistic society such as ours, just BREEDS crime. its doesnt take much sense to see this. theres people like u who are content with going to the range to shoot it off a few times, and keep it in your night table. then theres others who are gonna go rob the 7eleven.

ford was talking about the UK, i will talk about my country, Canada. now, Canada and the States share many,many things. we mostly just borrow your trends and we both profit from sharing a border. but, one of the fundamental diffrences between our countries is gun control, strict gun control. the crime rates for our largest cities are miniscule, nott even near a fraction of a millionth of what yours is. take it for what u want...cause i knoe americans love their guns like they love their fast food, but guns breed crime.

 

[Eliwar]

No, guns don't breed crime, they facilitate crimes. when I did a study last year for my govt. class about guns and gun control. I checked checked the statistics of Washington State and British Columbia, two relativley similar areas, and found that, yes more guns were used in the crimes in Washington, but it was almost made up for in the amount of crimes that knives and other non-firearm weapons were involved in BC. The point is that people will use waht is available to them not just guns. So knives have the same affect on people, but in a less amount.

Uh oh, I proved FS's point, but oh well. I like guns, but I agree that if they aren't controlled, like they aren't now, it will get even worse. Just don't ban them, it would create a huge black market for them.

"What's your major malfunction numbnuts!
Didn't Mommy or Daddy hold you enough when you were a child?!"
*Blam* -FMJ

[This message has been edited by Darkliege (edited 02-15-2000).]

 

[UpYours]

"Are you all wannabe murderers?"
FS..you are the typical British snob-*** . What kind of intelligent remark is that? Answer: Its not...just someone trying to stir up trouble....and "we civilized your country"..(spits). You started this crap by criticizing our country...so dont hand me "this is why you Americans this or that in the eyes of the world crap"..YOU said something and I responded...not me out trying to show the world how great Americans are..so get your facts straight if you wanna argue.
I use guns for hunting and I resent your implications that all they are good for is bad......how else would you kill a deer or goose in the wild? Guns were around for years before all this liberal minded viewpoint came up. Bottom line Mr. know it all...guns dont kill people..people do. And if and when you use your massive intellect to figure out how to keep weapons away from the bad guys..then I'll consider a gun ban..other wise I have a right to own one and use it if I need to.
My son's band teacher was shot in the shoulder by a "fake jogger that was hurt" yesterday morning. Do you think making guns illegal would have stopped this guy from getting one underground..or any of the other criminals? About 95% of gun crimes are committed by illegally obtained firearms..you think the croooks walk into a sporting good's store and buy a weapon? Jeeesh....if you do you are a bigger fool than you already appear to be.
No..you seem to be just another ding a ling throwin stones at glass houses.
Get your own country squared away then come here and criticize.
And remember, you started all this with your insulting remarks..so shut your pie hole up!

 

[CHRYSt]

Wow, OUFY's first rational rant. I'm impressed. they usually contain a good deal more expletives.

It's really obnoxious that I can't say anything that's already been ssaid, so I'll just use this time for myself.

I like turtles. Especially when they get up and dance. DANCE you little varmints! Turtles can't swim in vasoline, and they can't fly out of it, so they might as well be on their backs. I say, DOWN WITH THE QUEEN! She's really a turtle, and I don't want any vasoline drowners ruling me. K, thanks.

"Where's the BACTINE?! Some of this blood is MINE!!" -- JTHM

 

[Ford Scrote]

Sighs! Why is there always one person who has to make things personal?

Have you even read the previous debate?

The point i was critising you on was not your response but the way in which you made it. Your crude, racist, offensive remarks did little to add to a lively (and on both LS's and my behalves, mischevious) debate.
Obviously the subtly missed you.

My question (rather than statement) - are you all wannabe murderers? - was made in the context of my previous comments that in my view guns are made solely for destroying things.

Your remarks were nothing more than personally offensive to me. I'm surprised they let someone as angry as you have any sort of gun!

If you were to look back at my first post on this thread, you'd have read that I was interested in ppl's views on gun laws. I don't recall asking for personal abuse or for that matter giving any out.

My comment on 'we civilized your country' was made in light of LS's comments (which he later admitted were deliberately made to rile me - and it worked! /~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif

Unfortunately, once again, you seemed to have missed that.

Your point about hunting was a good point i'd missed because hunting (other than fox hunting) isn't common in the UK. That reason for keeping guns is one I'd overlooked and was the sort of point I was looking for - not the personal abuse you seem incapable of posting without dishing out. If I knew it all, i would have no need for forums like this one.

Instead of adding to the debate - like perhaps addressing some of the points I made - you simply set out to have a go at me because of your misinterpretation of what I'd written. The comments I made were in the context of the debate, which if you'd cared to read, would have made more sense to you.

FS

P.S. I really can't believe you called me a typical british snob!! hahahaha. After your previous post of accusing me of stereotyping! haha. talk about hypocrisy in action.

PPS What are you on about South Africa? Unless you're referring to our dismal cricket problems, you obviously know less about my country than it first seems.

PPPS Keep drinking plenty of liquid, with all that spitting you might end up dehydrated.

Smile! it might not happen and you might get a shag instead.

 

[Voyd-]

uy,

theres a huge diffrence between Hunting rifles and personal handguns or pistols. Hunting is perfectly legal. you can go off in thw woods and shoot some game, no problem. youre not hurting anyone (screw off you animals rights people). but the people with personal handguns have the real ability to hurt people. im not saying everyone with a weapon will use it for bad, not at all. but the mere fact of anyone being able to freely obtain and keep a powerful gun is recipe for disaster. how can u not comprehend this? will it take your neighbour getting robbed at gunpoint, or shot to get you to your senses? oh wait...i already know your answer. you will get your rifle and shoot him back. yes...the typical american mentality, counter violence with violence.

its common knowledge anyone, anywhere can get a gun wether its legal or not in that country. same as drugs and any other illegal thing. but strictly controlling it prevents a LARGE majority from obtaining the guns that they could have normally easily obtained legally! to me this just doesnt make sense. here i go into a store to buy a gun with which i can easily, at a whim end someones life. its no wonder you people need guns to feel safe, the fact they are legal and everywhere is the cause of that.

 

[Ford Scrote]

I'm a nice bloke too m8 /~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif

FS

Smile! it might not happen and you might get a shag instead.

 

[UpYours]

Voyd,
If you or anybody can come up with a plan to get rid of all the firearms/handguns, uzi's and other useless hunting weapons....AND..AND...AND...(BIG AND HERE)...AND keep them out of the criminal's hands then I will go along with any type of gun control bill so long as they dont take away my hunting guns...but the gun control people wont stop there..once they get on a roll they will want to ban all weapons....you know it and so do I.
THE BIG KEY in this issue is how do you get the guns away from the criminal element? Until thats resolved its my right to have a gun to defend my self if necessary...in my case a .38.
And Im no peacnik either....peace comes when nobody wants to jack with you cause they know they'll get their *** whipped. You can call that anykind of a "bumpkin" attitude if you want but its true. Same with nations. Nations with strong and advanced military organizations have peace....unless THEY decide to jump in a conflict.
NOW you are getting into an area that is extremely debatable and Im not sure I agreee at all with our foreign policies. Like Gen Powell said..."How do you justify jumping into every country 911 situation?" And if not then who gets the help? Im afraid the answers lie in politics and not morality.
And then again..why go help out a country that resents you in the 1st place...just doesnt make alot of sense.

And FS...I assumed the British were behind apartheid and that all that was still goin on..my mistake. Sorry.

 

[Sy]

I Blame the French. Most gun nut mass murderers wear brevets.

"I ain't got time to bleed"




[This message has been edited by Sy (edited 02-15-2000).]

 

[SSSHAD]

About getting guns: legally banning them does reduce the ability of criminals to get the guns. I dunno if you anybody of you studied basic economics, but the idea is: banning guns reduces their supply<all legal gunshops>, reductions in supply brings higher cost<read: via blackmarket>. Now, a LARGE number of crime is committed by teens, who are able to get a gun at a low cost. If the cost is high - no guns /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif

Yeah, and i do think that normal ppl like guns because of feel of power.<this applies not only to guns, but to anything that shoots, stabs or smashes, imo>

 

[L_S]

Voyd, you're lucky I'm so freakn tired right now. First thing you have to do is go read that link I posted.

You said,"blah blah blah......powerful gun." Oooh ph33r the powerful gun! Through my experience people who are not familiar with guns are afraid of them, like they have some sort of mystical power or something. This past summer, I took some of my friends shooting. For some of them it was the first time they handled a gun. They were intimidated to even touch it at first, but once I educated them on the parts, how to handle it, and the safety issues behind it, they were relaxed and no longer feared "the powerful gun." I said this before, a gun is a f*cking inanimate object.
Jesus Voyd, go read that link I posted.

The problem in America is disrespect for fellow human beings, lack of education, a ridiculously inefficient legal system, and a mentality that "me, me, me, I deserve something for nothing." Guns are not the cause!! How much clearer can I get! Read that link!

And to repeat this again, there is an even more fundamental issue here. The most basic freedoms of a human being to control his own life. And where does it stop? Handguns get banned, then hunting rifles.....whats next? The more you comprimise, the more rights you lose. I'm beginning to see that people outside this country have a very different mentailty than we do here. Yall seem very comfortable letting others dictate your life. See, well, I dont quite care for that myself. Yeah this place is f*cked in some regards, but hell if I'd want to live anywhere else. Sh*t people float on matresses across shark infested waters just to get here, it cant be all that bad.

[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by LiquiD_SiN (edited 02-15-2000).]