Hints about UT3 Expansion?

[MonsOlympus]

Yes but if they change things like that now then you'll might get incompatibilities with the current mods (let alone UT3 itself), there was instances of UT2003 modders having to rewrite portions of their modes to get it to work on UT2004. I mean alittle of that is expected but Epic are in a position to ease the burden.

If Epic can make the move from UT3 to the expansion as minimal as possible then its probably for the best, I mean in terms of expansions things should be as cross compatible as you can make them. Im not going to sit here and tell you the UE3 version with UT3 is all chocolate rainbows because it simply isnt but if they can fix certain issues (like custom gametype settings menu's) while keeping a level of compatibility, well thats what Id aim for.

I dunno hey, I wanna get my hands on a newer engine version as a modder but as a gamer I really dunno if thats whats best for UT3 at this point. They can certainly fix gameplay level problems so thats what Im asking takes priority here, we dont need software renderer's etc.

To be honest with you I cant even remember the last time I used a custom player model, custom voicepacks or custom music. I usually just play my own music, clientside force model makes custom players kinda redundant (even if the server has them lets not forget the cameo DEMOGUY) and voices well as long as I dont sound like a drunk soccer mum Im cool

So yes again at this point Im more concerned with the game itself over modding features, if they can get the game down and polished right up then the players will come and Epic can add more content in bonuspacks as they see fit. Ontop of that mappers in the community will still be hard at work on their own stuff, there will be ongoing issues for UT modders and I guess thats something that we just have to deal with.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

Well I really enjoyed UT2003 when it was released even amongst the cries of "its not like UT", I went on to UT2004 but the thing that drew me in being a modder as well was the engine also. If it wasnt for the engine I dont think I would have played as much UT2004 as I had, it lost something for me especially after playing UC2 and Q4, thats not to say it got replaced by me playing those games but I just dont play it much since I played those two games.

So going back Ive enjoyed UT, I still enjoy UT3 although I havent had much of a chance to play it lately. 2k4 I just cant get into, I think its run its course for me after 2-2 1/2 solid years of playing it (thatd be UT2004 only), I think I just came to a realization I never really liked it and I was just hopin Epic was gonna step it up a notch or that mods could fill some kind of void.

UT3 has such potential, it doesnt face scaling problems like UT2003->UT2004 and its maps arnt so bad they need to be remade (although some tweaks might be required) like curse for eg (even though CTF core I think it was is very broken). I could go on but you guys who have played the games know what Im talking about so spit it straight without the blinders and maybe we can help Epic see the things that could make this expansion better.

UT2004 might be the most "popular" game to date but that doesnt mean Epic couldnt do better or that its the best UT game on the planet, it simply means Im in a minority and I can see that. I do believe if Epic had spent the time working on a new UT game instead of an update like 2k4 we could have had a better UT game along the lines of UC2 cross 2k4 perhaps.

At this point I dunno if its better for Epic to make a UT4 with UE3.5 or just do this expansion right, I certainly do not want another UT2003->UT2004 fiasco and that mess of content. I really hope they can add content that'll fit with the style of UT3 but also build upon it, that was one of 2k4's problems vs the later games is there was an apparent lack of cohesion. I really hope they can fix the problems, to me it looks alot easier then it was from UT2003->UT2004 and well they didnt fix everything between those games since they were concentrating on new content. I just dont see a lack of content as a huge issue here (how many msuc entry maps all up has there been?)

While I agree with this view at all, what was so great about Q4? I have not played it, but I've heard it was awful and just a Doom3 clone with few enhancements.
I have never played UC2, because I don't own any consoles apart from old NES..and there are not good emulators for consoles much, apart project64.
Maybe UT2004 is easy for modders, but the game itself isn't that great (i still find it the weakest UT) and even most of the mods avaiable somehow didn't catch me up, only with few exceptions....some of them being excessively overrated..

 

[evilmrfrank]

Like I've said, you're right about UT2003 as it has only a few mods and stuff. While UT2004 is powerful because of easy modding.

I don't like UT2k4 more than UT2k3 because of Mods, although that does help a bit. I was just talking about the game by itself. Its entirely an opinion thing for me. After playing UT2004 for a long time going back to UT2003 feels much slower.

 

[Grobut]

I dunno hey, I wanna get my hands on a newer engine version as a modder but as a gamer I really dunno if thats whats best for UT3 at this point.

What is there to protect at this point? the game has sold more than a million copies, and lets just be conservative and assume only 300.000 of thouse are PC copies (i'd think the real number will be higher than that though), yet only a couple hundred people actually play it, and aside from a slow trickle of maps, there's barely any mods in progress either.

There's no reason not to upgrade the engine, sure some modders will have to rewrite some stuff, but honestly, i'd say thats better if it means people will actually play the game this time around, and their mods, what good is keeping compatibillity for mods if nobody's going to be around to play them?

The game has flat out bombed, so they may aswell float it down the river and do what ever it takes with this expansion to start over, better tech would be an incentive for modders everywhere to take another look at it, and hell, even if that doesen't work out, we'll hardly be any worse off than we are now..

 

[GreatEmerald]

MonsOlympus, but think, making it compatible 100% is a hard as hell task. They didn't even make PCs and consoles compatible. Plus if the expansion is so great, then why would you have to keep the old UI and other stuff that take like 1GB on your HDD? While if it's a UT2003-UT2004 situation, then the game will be optimised, no wasted resources, better FPS, more functions and it will be released earlier because they wouldn't need to worry about compatibility! Of course, making something like a backwards-compatibility emulators would be quite good as they wouldn't lose the current UT3 players (even if there aren't many).

evilmrfrank, slow? Well, probably because UT2004 by default runs on ~110% speed, and UT2003 runs at max on 100% + is configurable (just like in the first Unreal titles), but only to less.

 

[T2A`]

Pretty sure I read that UT3 only sold about 400k copies across all three platforms, and we could probably assume 75% or more of those were for consoles. What's the going ratio of console vs. PC sales? 10:1? UT3 might have shipped a million copies but those aren't sales.

/shrug

 

[MonsOlympus]

While I agree with this view at all, what was so great about Q4? I have not played it, but I've heard it was awful and just a Doom3 clone with few enhancements.
I have never played UC2, because I don't own any consoles apart from old NES..and there are not good emulators for consoles much, apart project64.
Maybe UT2004 is easy for modders, but the game itself isn't that great (i still find it the weakest UT) and even most of the mods avaiable somehow didn't catch me up, only with few exceptions....some of them being excessively overrated..

Oh dont get me wrong Im not sayin these games are leagues better then UT2004 or even better then UT2004 I was purely using that as a point of reference for when I stopped playing UT2004. Id have to agree with it being the weakest UT though, Ons was definatly a bonus and invasion had its moments. Well I was really looking forward to seeing what Epic did in terms of those modes in UT3, Im not really that happy with Warfare and will admit I had more fun with Ons. As far as DM and CTF though theres plenty of other games which offer those modes, some do it better some dont... some of those are UT series games

I guess being a fan of tribes showed me what player classes can do for CTF defensive and offensive squad options

There's no reason not to upgrade the engine, sure some modders will have to rewrite some stuff, but honestly, i'd say thats better if it means people will actually play the game this time around, and their mods, what good is keeping compatibillity for mods if nobody's going to be around to play them?

The game has flat out bombed, so they may aswell float it down the river and do what ever it takes with this expansion to start over, better tech would be an incentive for modders everywhere to take another look at it, and hell, even if that doesen't work out, we'll hardly be any worse off than we are now..

Ahhh usual ball of sunshine I see! Well my point is modders are still around and if they are the only thing thats going to keep another UT game alive well, better off releasing UT as a framework for creating new indy games.

My point is that we can be worse off then we are now if the engine is a primary concern, certainly modders views should be taken into consideration but UT first and foremost is a game. If Epic takes the time to fix up the game then modders may comeback as I have found a games popularity can increase a mod community even if the engine isnt that great.

MonsOlympus, but think, making it compatible 100% is a hard as hell task. They didn't even make PCs and consoles compatible. Plus if the expansion is so great, then why would you have to keep the old UI and other stuff that take like 1GB on your HDD? While if it's a UT2003-UT2004 situation, then the game will be optimised, no wasted resources, better FPS, more functions and it will be released earlier because they wouldn't need to worry about compatibility! Of course, making something like a backwards-compatibility emulators would be quite good as they wouldn't lose the current UT3 players (even if there aren't many).

Im certainly not saying keep it 100% compatible but I do think UT3 maps should load up straight in there, no network incompatibilities and stuff like that. Hell UT2004 even completely broke gameplay code from UT2003

Better FPS? you cant be serious, the UE3 particle system is better then either UT2003's or UT2004's, theres so many enhancements in there already people can use. They just seem to get stuck on the things that dont work, which is understandable I can sympathize with voice pack makers, people making music and character models. Hell the custom gametype settings annoyed me to no end and Im having to find a hook.

All that old stuff would be on your HDD just as it was from UT2003, if Epic wanted to they could have included the UT2003.exe and you coulda booted both games from the 1 directory provided UT2003 could work out which things would and wouldnt work with that version.

Its not about keeping the old UI, thats something thats at a game level aside from this custom gametype settings bit I keep mentioning. Things like the character parts and all that seem pretty deeply imbedded as well, I spose that could be broken to fix it up but that would mean people need to re-release their characters, if it means we get a upl like system that works Im all for it.

Its not just about mod makers though, every time Epic has to bring something from UT3 up to expansion scratch its taking time from actually improving on things. This is my main concern and this is why I think UT3 turned out the way it did, they didnt just have to make UT3 but also bring the gameplay from the previous games up to scratch so essentially they did remake UT again from scratch for the new engine, you really dont want to be going back and forwarding porting everything each time you want to use a new engine build.

I think theres more UT3 players then you think, sure there might not be 300,000 or whatever number you wanna throw up in the air but you can be sure more then 50% of people never took UT3 online. I really dont think Epic should be wasting their time with more single player since that didnt go over so well and to fix that would take resources out of bringing UT back into the MP scene.

 

[TheIronKnuckle]

I agree that they shouldn't bother with the single player any more. This is coming from an offliner. UT99's single player tournament ladder with a final fight against Xan on one hell of an atmospheric map..... that was all I ever needed in terms of SP. Not this "war" BS.

 

[JohnDoe641]

I'm guessing the expansion will simply be UT3 plus more maps, fluff, and maybe Conquest or Assault. Or maybe just more maps and fluff (characters, etc.). Then again, maybe they've put some effort into making UT3 a good game at its most core level (weapon balance, mouse input, netcode, scale, movement speed, etc.).

...Nah.

I wouldn't care what they did for added content if they actually fixed the fundamental problems with UT3 input/netcode/ui/etc. They could make a map with a giant dog taking a crap for all I care but I seriously doubt anything will get fixed at all.

 

[GreatEmerald]

I guess being a fan of tribes showed me what player classes can do for CTF defensive and offensive squad options

Im certainly not saying keep it 100% compatible but I do think UT3 maps should load up straight in there, no network incompatibilities and stuff like that. Hell UT2004 even completely broke gameplay code from UT2003

Better FPS? you cant be serious, the UE3 particle system is better then either UT2003's or UT2004's, theres so many enhancements in there already people can use. They just seem to get stuck on the things that dont work, which is understandable I can sympathize with voice pack makers, people making music and character models. Hell the custom gametype settings annoyed me to no end and Im having to find a hook.

I think theres more UT3 players then you think, sure there might not be 300,000 or whatever number you wanna throw up in the air but you can be sure more then 50% of people never took UT3 online. I really dont think Epic should be wasting their time with more single player since that didnt go over so well and to fix that would take resources out of bringing UT back into the MP scene.

Yeah, XMP for the win!

Uhhm, maps from UT2003 do load straight to UT2004 (with a little bit of emulation but that's all). What do you mean, broke gameplay?

What are you talking about? My new PC can't handle UT3 on detail level 2 on usual graphics card settings, it gives me 20 FPS max. That's not how I would like to play.

I agree that they shouldn't bother with the single player any more. This is coming from an offliner. UT99's single player tournament ladder with a final fight against Xan on one hell of an atmospheric map..... that was all I ever needed in terms of SP. Not this "war" BS.

I don't. If they made Unreal III that has:
a) Single, as in SINGLE player mode, really single, not tournament or nothing. Quite like it was in Unreal II.
b) Co-op support. This is of the essence, and this is why Unreal 1 is still active and kicking.
c) Limited multiplayer. Obviously they don't want to cut their UT sales, but having additional MP games in Unreal III would help a lot. That means replayability and more sales.
d) References to other Unreal series games. Unreal II was almost unrelated, that's another factor that took away a lot of people. I would like to see a mix of all Unreal series games - you should visit Na Pali, meet (and possibly team with) Malcolm, know what happened to the Artifacts (after that star explodes, they will break free again), maybe visit some interesting worlds like Severnaya, watch a Tournament match (but NOT participate!), infiltrate a Liandri base and fight against Xan mk. 4 etc.

That way it would really be a success. Of course, they should also keep in mind performance and installation. Like, the Master Detail slider in Unreal II XMP is a miracle - I can play on both 512MB RAM laptop and 2GB RAM stationary PC with a steady 50+FPS.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Uhhm, maps from UT2003 do load straight to UT2004 (with a little bit of emulation but that's all). What do you mean, broke gameplay?

What are you talking about? My new PC can't handle UT3 on detail level 2 on usual graphics card settings, it gives me 20 FPS max. That's not how I would like to play.

Yes but how do we know maps from UT3 will load straight up in UE3.5? We dont now do we, so before we go jumping the gun perhaps we should consider these things. I wont even mention console support cause its a big enough head**** as it is on PC only

If thats a "new" PC id take it back, theres something wrong with it

 

[TheIronKnuckle]

I don't. If they made Unreal III that has:
a) Single, as in SINGLE player mode, really single, not tournament or nothing. Quite like it was in Unreal II.
b) Co-op support. This is of the essence, and this is why Unreal 1 is still active and kicking.
c) Limited multiplayer. Obviously they don't want to cut their UT sales, but having additional MP games in Unreal III would help a lot. That means replayability and more sales.
d) References to other Unreal series games. Unreal II was almost unrelated, that's another factor that took away a lot of people. I would like to see a mix of all Unreal series games - you should visit Na Pali, meet (and possibly team with) Malcolm, know what happened to the Artifacts (after that star explodes, they will break free again), maybe visit some interesting worlds like Severnaya, watch a Tournament match (but NOT participate!), infiltrate a Liandri base and fight against Xan mk. 4 etc.

That way it would really be a success. Of course, they should also keep in mind performance and installation. Like, the Master Detail slider in Unreal II XMP is a miracle - I can play on both 512MB RAM laptop and 2GB RAM stationary PC with a steady 50+FPS.

yeah that would be great if the game was unreal 3. This is unreal tournament 3 that we're talking about. So no campaign please, just give me a tournament ladder.

 

[Soggy_Popcorn]

Yes but how do we know maps from UT3 will load straight up in UE3.5? We dont now do we, so before we go jumping the gun perhaps we should consider these things. I wont even mention console support cause its a big enough head**** as it is on PC only

If thats a "new" PC id take it back, theres something wrong with it

Well, actually, they will. The only "problematic" changes they might have made have to do with rendering (I forget what exactly they call it; it adds depth to the lighting). Basically, they might have to revise their lightmaps. All the other changes were additions - like soft-body physics and water eye-candy. None of which are included in UT3 at this point.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I don't like UT2k4 more than UT2k3 because of Mods, although that does help a bit. I was just talking about the game by itself. Its entirely an opinion thing for me. After playing UT2004 for a long time going back to UT2003 feels much slower.

Ironically, to me it feels exactly opposite to that.

Frankly, everything in UT2003 is meant to make it faster. Fast weapon switching, faster reload times on weapons in general, dodge jumping, boost dodging, etc. UT2003 has the fastest gameplay out of the UT series, IMO.

However, this is also it's downfall. While highly entertaining to those who knew the tricks, the game was completely inaccessible to new players. They dumbed everything down in UT2004 to try to fix that, but didn't really fix anything at all, and personally I found they ruined most of what made UT2003 fun anyway.

The game has flat out bombed, so they may aswell float it down the river and do what ever it takes with this expansion to start over, better tech would be an incentive for modders everywhere to take another look at it, and hell, even if that doesen't work out, we'll hardly be any worse off than we are now..

Can't agree more. They aren't going to be alienating anyone with this. UT3 Warfare lovers will stick to it like diehards like the UT2003 LGIG BR community did to UT2003, and everyone else will move on. Heck, I wouldn't care if they hardly changed anything if all there was was an active CTF community in UT3, ffs.

Pretty sure I read that UT3 only sold about 400k copies across all three platforms, and we could probably assume 75% or more of those were for consoles. What's the going ratio of console vs. PC sales? 10:1? UT3 might have shipped a million copies but those aren't sales.

Read the news.

 

[MonsOlympus]

Well, actually, they will. The only "problematic" changes they might have made have to do with rendering (I forget what exactly they call it; it adds depth to the lighting). Basically, they might have to revise their lightmaps. All the other changes were additions - like soft-body physics and water eye-candy. None of which are included in UT3 at this point.

Ambient occlusion. As far as I can tell every object in the scene would have to be updated to support the new parameters because they would be part of the static mesh actor class. I think motion blur is already on each object but is non functional, well atleast from my tests.

So from what I know of unrealed if you update an actor class you can cause incompatibilities with the map, you can do this at script level as well I might add. Say for eg you add an actor you have from your own script file, then delete the script file, the map will spit errors at you and worst case crash the editor. Maybe Epic have a system for rolling through changes like this, I mean you think they would have atleast something for updating old maps to a newer build.

 

[GreatEmerald]

Yes but how do we know maps from UT3 will load straight up in UE3.5?

UT99 could load U1 maps, UT2004 could load UT2003 maps, I don't see why they would change this now.

yeah that would be great if the game was unreal 3. This is unreal tournament 3 that we're talking about. So no campaign please, just give me a tournament ladder.

True. Epic made a mistake by trying to combine Unreal and UT.

 

[Leo(T.C.K.)]

UT99 could load U1 maps, UT2004 could load UT2003 maps, I don't see why they would change this now.


True. Epic made a mistake by trying to combine Unreal and UT.

I never really had a problem with the campaign even if it was kind of dumb, it just fitted the game for me and was refreshing after the previous titles and perhaps if it would be even less botmatch then it would be even better....

 

[Kantham]

I hope for some really good maps to play.

Clean design FTW.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

lol I just noticed the tag "zero time to whining"

 

[SlipStreams_65]

Better FPS? you cant be serious, the UE3 particle system is better then either UT2003's or UT2004's, theres so many enhancements in there already people can use.

Not to go too far off topic, but I personally despise the new particle system. It seems to take far more time and effort to get even a simple emitter going than in UE2. Granted I havent spent much time with the new one, but its one of the reasons Ive been reluctant to get into ut3 mapping.