Honestly, I don't think the franchise ever recovered from the bad reception UT3 got - a few die-hard mappers (like yourself) supported the game but no where near as much as UT, UT2003 & UT2004.
It just lost momentum.
It just lost momentum.
Epic Games Announces: Fortnite
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They can make it work IF THEY WANT. Just create some online tools to inform server admins and release server patches before client ones, so that admins can download the update beforehand, test it and prepare the server in time for patch day. Sure, some servers would probably disappear from the server browser on the first few days, if their admin couldn't update it in time (or did not update it for mod compatibilty issues), but the vast majority of them will be back online in a matter of hours.
Obviously something like this would require those missing communications skills we were talking some posts ago, but i'm sure epic can even create a more efficent update system if they really want.
Kyllian
if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;
If Cliffy wants to make Unreal Scrolls, it needs to be a continuation of the storyline, not a reboot
If they want to reboot Unreal1, they need to basically take the original, pretty it up in the classic style and update the code
No chest high walls, no toilet color scheme, no changes to the original story.
If they want to reboot Unreal1, they need to basically take the original, pretty it up in the classic style and update the code
No chest high walls, no toilet color scheme, no changes to the original story.
Of course, there are more issues. But the fact that so many of these issues were either not addressed or Epic admitted they would not fix them is just astounding, really. There are 86 bugs and only 11 of them were resolved is pathetic for a game like UT. Unfortunately, it only highlights the fact that UT3 was not and has never been Epic's primary focus.
I hope that Epic does a few things for the next UT game, if it ever happens:
1) Stay vocal with the community. They need someone that works in Epic's office that is a part of every team meeting that is open to comment on specific things with the community both before the game is released and before every "major" revision.
2) Stop doing major revisions. Multiplayer only games work best with lots of community feedback and frequent fixing. Small, incremental, frequent patches show that the company is watching the reported issues and taking care of things that are important to the community (you know, the people who play, support, populate, propagate your game).
3) Stop worrying about network compatibility. It is my understanding that the Demo Guy Bug in UT3, for example, cannot be fixed because it introduces a break in the network compatibility of the current version of the game with previous versions. Epic needs to stop worrying about this and focus on fixing problems. The majority of people actively playing your game would rather have a working game than be able to play with original retail copies of the game.
4) Communicate the basics of the game to the community earlier and the complex things later. With UT3, Epic was always talking about experimental gametypes and garbage like that. All that most of us want to know is how are level designers trying to avoid things like jagged brushes, simplified "arenas" and ideal flow. How are gameplay designers ensuring that the gameplay they are creating fits within the levels, pleases people who will play the game and helps to create a healthy community of people that enjoy the game. Nobody will care about the gametypes until the game is almost out.
5) Create a testbed game. A simplified and neutered version of UT in the browser or on Steam that is free would allow Epic to test out variations of gameplay, level design, gametypes, etc without affecting a retail launch of a game. I promise that as burned as the bridge is between Epic and the UT community right now, a bone like this would get A LOT of people interested. Especially if feedback was requested, encouraged and responded to. Don't allow modding and set the majority of the game's rules yourself. No intrusion on the retail game, but LOTS of good will to the community and a great way to build rapport and get excellent feedback about the game.
6) Stop bringing people in for 2-4 hour play sessions to tell you how the game feels. People figure out they hate this or that or find bugs after literally DAYS of hammering on a game. Saying that you had "the pros" (whoever that is) come in and test your game tells us nothing and makes it seem like only their feedback matters. Do #5. It will get you MUCH farther in a matter of days that an infinite amount of these play testing sessions ever will.
7) Act like you care... on a daily basis. I know Epic cares about UT. I know they aren't exactly happy about how that whole situation went down. Every once in a while someone at Epic threw the community a bone, and thousands of hounds feasted on it within minutes. The problem is, that bone disappeared right away and it was literally WEEKS (if not months) before we ever heard from anyone again. The community needs bones on a daily basis. This is where this person employed by Epic who is invited to all the progress meetings comes in. They can throw bones frequently.
8) Just do what the Epic Games of 1998/1999 would do. I don't think it's that out of line to say that the community feels like they are dealing with an entirely different company. The Unreal technology blog that Epic ran at unreal.epicgames.com was awesome. It was a great eye opener for the community and it kept people interested in new developments. It was posted to frequently and had technical talk not just marketing mamby pamby information. The community wants to know that Epic is in it with them. They want to be heard and know that the future looks bright. Even if the game has a terrible launch, things can get better. All it takes is communication. A one line post that says "we are aware of lots of issues and we are trying to tackle as many as possible. we'll keep you updated!" does a lot more than going dark and then surprising everyone with a bomb that only does about 25% of what any given individual really wants to see.
9) Focus on the PC platform first and let the consoles get what they can. On PC, you can commit to and do everything listed above. On consoles, you can't. Pick the platform that gives you flexibility first above all. Everything else should be playing second fiddle and should be "simplified" from the PC version. This is NOT an "I am better than you" statement, this is just reality. PC allows you to be flexible as a developer where consoles, in general, do not.
10) Reiterating, COMMUNICATE. We just want to know what is going on. If money has dried up and you can't support the game anymore... tell us! We aren't dumb, we look at the list of unfixed bugs in UT3 and the time it's been since the last patch and we know that support is done. Telling us makes us feel as if we are an important and integral part of the business.
In conclusion, I really do think another UT could be done and be done right. The only question is, is Epic willing to do what it takes to make the game a success? For now, I guess, only time will tell...
TL;DR version: THERE ISN'T ONE READ THE FREAKING POST(in other words, I used to write TL;DR sections until I took an arrow to the knee)
Good post . Agree with every word.
Epic's argument though, would probably be , that if they do engage the community, they just get flamed. Some truth in that too, there were a few high profile UT2004 players who threw their toys out of their prams, preferring to just insult Epic on their own forum ,rather than being constructive about what was wrong with UT3. Jeff Morris aka Wartourist, obviously did engage here at BU, but he was always pretty uncompromising with critics and of course it didn't help that UT3's release coincided with Epic's major downer about the viability of the PC as a gaming platform going forward.
Nevertheless, why they didn't even have a closed, weekly update thread, running on their own forums, is beyond me. Even something as simple as, " good progress made - 70% bug list fixes complete", would've maintained interest through patch hopes. The long radio silence, often 3-6 months, effectively destroyed hopes for a stronger player base.
As for a new UT, UTs are usually big budget AAA titles and they're probably best kept that way. Maybe Epic could consider some form of seed -funding. Used to develop many other products; the idea here, being that loads of UT fans put some money up front, if enough sign up by a set date, it starts , if not the funds are returned. The advantage would be genuine community consultation /input to get features /gameplay just right for launch. Sadly though, even if Epic agreed, getting people to put up some money , however small the sum, would be the hard part. This despite the fact that many of those same people probably had UT2007 /3 on pre-order two years out.
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It would indeed be difficult to get people to put money down in advance. Their silence continued after release of UT3. Look at the "Official Messages" on their own forums. Only 8 threads in 4 years and most of those are trying to sell something or are for other self promotion. No hope for patches. No explanations or even apologies.
Sure , they took some bad flames, but, they also deleted a lot of threads that only asked legitimate questions. That just made things worse, made people madder and trust them less.
Trusting Epic enough to pay for something in advance would be quite a stretch.
They get flamed mostly because of this lack of communication with the community. Grasshopper made a very good point: if you just talk to your playerbase to sell something when they expect you to answer months over months of unanswered questions, well... you get the reaction you deserve.
I mean, look at the blizzard community forums. That place is so full of trolls that you can't even compare their numbers to those on the epic forum but their flames aren't nearly so bad because they are engaged with their community. They answer to most of the people questions, inform people about the progress of game development... they make you feel like you're part of the project because that is what a good community manager should do.
Epic Games simply don't have anyone that does the same, and i believe they strongly needs to hire someone who does it.
I mean, look at the blizzard community forums. That place is so full of trolls that you can't even compare their numbers to those on the epic forum but their flames aren't nearly so bad because they are engaged with their community. They answer to most of the people questions, inform people about the progress of game development... they make you feel like you're part of the project because that is what a good community manager should do.
Epic Games simply don't have anyone that does the same, and i believe they strongly needs to hire someone who does it.
Brizz's thoughts pretty much match my own. They need to study what companies like Valve, Mojang, Blizzard, and others have done in terms of staying connected with their communities. Epic prides themselves on being "iterative developers" (or so the bonus material from the UT2004 CE claims) and this should be an extension of that. They need to start small with the next UT and build it from there. Brizz mentions a testbed... isn't that just the UT demo built into UDK?
What's most annoying to me is that we know Epic can be just as good as Valve in some regards. UT and UT2004 had a fairly good feedback cycle between devs and fans, culminating in 2-3 years worth of patches and the occassional bonus pack. Chair has been turning out free updates for Infinity Blade on iOS over the last year on a somewhat regular basis.
I really don't understand why we've seen a complete breakdown in communication from them on any non-Gears project this generation. We've already flogged UT3 to death, but Bulletstorm had the same issue. As soon as the game withered on the vine they just went home instead of trying to improve the game they delivered.
I hope that Fortnite is a PC release (Notch got a favorable reaction from Cliffy when he asked on Twitter) and that Epic is able to use it as a testbed for improving their customer relations for future games.
As much as I would be on-board with a new UT game I would not put money in a Kickstarter project for it to be green-lit. After the state UT3 shipped in, there's no guarantee we'd have a working game once it was released.
What's most annoying to me is that we know Epic can be just as good as Valve in some regards. UT and UT2004 had a fairly good feedback cycle between devs and fans, culminating in 2-3 years worth of patches and the occassional bonus pack. Chair has been turning out free updates for Infinity Blade on iOS over the last year on a somewhat regular basis.
I really don't understand why we've seen a complete breakdown in communication from them on any non-Gears project this generation. We've already flogged UT3 to death, but Bulletstorm had the same issue. As soon as the game withered on the vine they just went home instead of trying to improve the game they delivered.
I hope that Fortnite is a PC release (Notch got a favorable reaction from Cliffy when he asked on Twitter) and that Epic is able to use it as a testbed for improving their customer relations for future games.
As much as I would be on-board with a new UT game I would not put money in a Kickstarter project for it to be green-lit. After the state UT3 shipped in, there's no guarantee we'd have a working game once it was released.
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what was the deal with the handling of UT3 anyway? The series was never a Huge Hit on the consoles (yeah, it sold, but it wasn't big), so why suddenly the PC userbase got put on the backburner for the 3rd installment? It just doesnt' make sense. The PC is why it was where it was, not the dreamcast or the PS2.
What does make sense is that the whole of the gameplay is unabashedly mouse and keyboard centric.
Therefore you have gameplay that a control pad cannot grasp, and a presentation that alienates the true fans of the franchise.
This equates to low sales.
I know it's old news, but maybe like you said, it was never addressed to the community directly, only figuratively.
What does make sense is that the whole of the gameplay is unabashedly mouse and keyboard centric.
Therefore you have gameplay that a control pad cannot grasp, and a presentation that alienates the true fans of the franchise.
This equates to low sales.
I know it's old news, but maybe like you said, it was never addressed to the community directly, only figuratively.
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Kyllian
if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;
Even more baffling is they went through all the trouble of trying to integrate some community features into UT2004. Stuff like a news feed and a link to CliffyB's "0wnages" map site. They completely tossed that out with UT3 and just stayed quiet.
I have to wonder if it was just a shift in focus from UT to Gears or if there's some sort of internal policy change due to working with Midway and MS Game Studios.
That might be the most important point yet -
Microsoft has the funds, enough to make you forget everything you were doing and focus on what they want you to do.
Microsoft has the funds, enough to make you forget everything you were doing and focus on what they want you to do.
nobody here cares about the Epic forums anymore.
Just read this thread.
The only reason I wasn't banned from that place is because I stopped visiting, years ago.
It's a shit heap.
Just read this thread.
The only reason I wasn't banned from that place is because I stopped visiting, years ago.
It's a shit heap.
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Kyllian
if (Driver == Bot.Pawn); bGTFO=True;
It's fairly easy to see their priorities by just looking at their forum
Top bar: Gears of War 3 Support / UDK Docs(I'll give em this one, kinda)
GoW/UDK/ChAIR forum areas get descriptions for the various sections
Unreal/UT has been on the back burner for a while now
Do I want another UT? Yes.
Am I holding any expectations on it ever happening or being the second coming of digitalJesus? No.
Top bar: Gears of War 3 Support / UDK Docs(I'll give em this one, kinda)
GoW/UDK/ChAIR forum areas get descriptions for the various sections
Unreal/UT has been on the back burner for a while now
Do I want another UT? Yes.
Am I holding any expectations on it ever happening or being the second coming of digitalJesus? No.
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if were not microsoft and midway in middle their work maybe I say maybe things could have been different tho
Fortnite is probably costing Epic half of what typical games cost to produce. Studios can't afford to make expensive games anymore. Half of the studios already died off with this current generation of games. They all tried to put all the effort in graphics and failed. Graphics cost more to produce than anything else. Get used to the silly cartoony shit from now on.