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DTAS Gametype?

Discussion in 'Infiltration Development' started by shan, Feb 24, 2004.

  1. {GD}Odie3

    {GD}Odie3 You Give Odie a Boner

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    Running on GD DTAS SG Style! Server.
     
  2. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    My opinion about displaying the number of kills : IT SUCKS. I don't know what you guys were thinking, at first you remove the display of opponents remaining ( :tup: ), and now you reintroduce the number of kills :mad: ? I thought your concern was to discourage people from going tdm style...
     
  3. Harper [Jgkdo]

    Harper [Jgkdo] New Member

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    The display of kills is delayed (only updates at end of rounds) and it isn't used for scoreboard ranking.

    As I said, I want to see where it goes and what everyone think about it.
    You made your point and I share your fears about TDM style. But my hope is that people will just consider it another useful statistic value and don't fall back into the "mine is bigger" mentality and go on rampage around the map.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2004
  4. Blitzschlag

    Blitzschlag New Member

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    For me its all the same, i look at the scor and notice f.e. that ive makted 5 kills, but what are these kills if i lose 5:2?? Nonsense! I play for fun and good teamwork, not for beeing better and i think many DTAS Playes think the same.

    I would only be pleased if the Acc. updates Realtime in the score, not at the end, but there is nothing else i can find to complain about. ;)

    Really Nice Job Harper:) :2thumb: :tup: \o/ :rockon:

    :cheers: Blitz
     
  5. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    I like the way the scoreboard is now. It is nice to have lots of stats, but have ranking determined by captures and deaths rather then kills.

    Besides, rank doesn't mean squat in comparison to the team score!

    @Blitz
    He should keep the accuracy only updating at the end of the round. Otherwise people check their accuracy to confirm their kills... which is dumb.
     
  6. Harper [Jgkdo]

    Harper [Jgkdo] New Member

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    Here we go again ;)

    I did a lot of recoding with 1.42/1.43 so keep your eyes open if anything doesn't work as expected. And of course tell me about it ;)

    One of the new features is a new (optional) low player gamemode called Foxhunt (INF-FOX) whenever DTAS is inactive (in the beginning I called it Assassination, but INF-ASS didn't sound right :D)
    Basically it gives you an objective in the otherwise meaningless TDM rounds.
    If you don't like being called a fox consider the objective being part of the following scenario:
    A high ranking military officer has been tagged with a radio beacon by enemy forces who afterwards dispatched a group of soldiers to assassinate him. These soldiers are equipped with a receiver which gets the signals send by the radio beacon. These signals transmit the current time, so by calculating time difference at the moment the signal is received these soldiers are able to tell how far they are still away from this officer (the fox). Of course he has some soldiers himself who will (hopefully) protect him.
    Basically Foxhunt is to DTAS what Specialist is to EAS.
    The other feature is the possibility of variable capture times. Look down into the README section for more information.

    ChangeLog:
    (InfilDTAS 1.43)
    - (bugfix) added more messages and a HUD display concerning foxhunt mission objectives
    - (bugfix) hopefully fixed the bug that new players which connect between rounds trigger the change team function (resulting in the same attacking and defending teams for the next round)

    (InfilDTAS 1.42)
    - (feature) introduced a low player TDM replacement game mode called Foxhunt (INF-FOX)
    - (feature) possibility of dynamic capture time (take a look at the readme)

    README.TXT:
    Variable capture times
    ======================

    With version 1.42 some new ini options were introduced.
    The most important one is bFixedCapTime which toggles between the standard DTAS attack/defense configuration (DefendersNeeded could defend against anything) and a new more dynamic one.
    When disabling bFixedCapTime, some other ini options are used: AttackerTimeDecrease, DefenderTimeIncrease and MaxCapTime.
    AttackerTimeDecrease and DefenderTimeIncrease adjusts how much an additional attacker/defender (more than needed) will ease/complicate the capture process. Be aware that there still must be at least AttackersNeeded attackers in the area.
    MaxCapTime sets a upper time limit how long a capture process may take.
    One example: CapTime=10, AttackersNeeded=2, DefendersNeeded=2, bFixedCapTime=False, AttackerTimeDecrease=10, DefenderTimeIncrease=20, MaxCapTime=20
    Imagine there are two defenders in range of the flag. As soon as there are two attackers within the area they will start to capture the flag (no time increase/decrease, CapTime < MaxCapTime). Now another defender enters the objective area. Because there are now more Defenders than DefendersNeeded, they gain a time increase of 20 seconds which would mean a capture time of 30 seconds. This however is bigger than the 20 seconds MaxCapTime so the attackers are not able to capture anymore. But if another attacker manages to get in range, he will decrease the capture time to 20 seconds again, which is the MaxCapTime so they start capturing again. If however instead of the one attacker three would have entered, they would have reduced the CapTime to 0 and captured the objective immediatly (with five attackers against three defenders)


    The Foxhunt gamemode
    ====================

    When enabling bFoxMode in the INI or by using "mutate DTASFoxOn" (DTASFoxOff to disable it again) in game you can activate a new TDM replacement game mode called Foxhunt. Similar to DTAS there is a defending and an attacking team. One member of the defending team becomes "the fox" and must be protected by its team members at all cost because they will automatically loose the round when he dies.
    The attacker on the other hand must hunt down the fox. To make this task easier they have a range display about how far they are away of the fox. With proper communication and range comparision, they will be able to locate his exact position and hunt him down.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    ah sorry for when i bitched about "poping a grenade into a ennemy's head and him not dying" on jgkdo server :D
    i was like "yeah good shoot 40 mm in the head" ! then i see "kills = 0"

    so i bitched, what the **** ect
    :D
     
  8. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    this foxhunt sounds very nice
     
  9. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Very good job here, you really have improved dtas quite a lot with this new version. And you got rid of tdm ! :clap:

    Yet i have a few comments/suggestions :
    - the new dynamic capture system is much better than the former one, although i think there should be some restrictions to it. For example, when there is the same amount of attackers and defenders in the cap radius, defenders should always have the advantage by preventing the capture (the principle of an attack/defense system is that defenders always have a strategical advantage, otherwise there's no reason for them hold and wait for the enemy, rather than go look for some action). I know this is possible with the current settings, but i think it should be hardcoded into the mutator, so that we don't get different settings on each server : this may also result in people being really confused about how to protect the flag, and therefore encourage them to go hunt the other team instead of trying to prevent capture. As a general rule, try to make the cap system as intelligible and quick to understand as possible.
    Also i think there should be a defined max number of defender to prevent any flag capture. This could be mesured by a simple numerical value or a percentage : for example, if 4 defenders, or 50% of the team is in radius, capturing the flag is impossible. Again this would give a reason more for the defenders to hold on their ground.

    - from what i'm told, lowering the flagplacetime below 15 sec may cause various bugs. I think this should be looked into for the next version because i find that placeflagtime is too long on most servers. In 15 sec you can run more than 50m, which is a lot in most Inf maps. The result of this is that the flag end up being placed most times in the same areas, which kills the fun of randomness. A shorter placeflagtime (say 8 sec) would limit the possibility of choosing where the flag is placed, making gameplay a bit more varied than it is now. If lowering flagplacetime is not possible, perhaps there could be a way to freeze players at the begining of the round for x number of seconds.

    - and again on the scoreboard, it's too tdm-ish. It doesn't suit the spirit of dtas imho. Take the average tdm player, many of them don't like dtas because the game doesn't reward the kill count, it rewards teamplay. Now with this new scoreboard, even when your team loses, you still get the satisfaction of saying "cool i'm still the best fragger of my team". Even if the ranking is not based of the kills count, everybody knows that's what people look at. Plus, rewarding only captures and kills is stupid : there are some players that always look for some action, there are those who play for the team. What will happen to the poor guy that stayed the whole round near the flag doing the ingrate job of preventing capture ? Does he gets his share for sacrificing himself for the team ? Nope, his scoreboard will display 0, 0 and 0, even though what he did was useful. I even found myself being pissed because of a low kill count, even though my team won.

    Sorry for this long and demanding post, i still like very much what you guys are doing. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2004
  10. {GD}Odie3

    {GD}Odie3 You Give Odie a Boner

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    DTAS .43 is running on GD DTAS SG Syle!

    I lowered the Bot count to 4, so peeps can try out this new fox thing when there are less than 6 players.
     
  11. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    i think the fox thing should be tried as a real gamemode on a server
     
  12. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    Is it possible to make the fox look different than the regular soldiers? It would be nice if you could assign him the specialist skin.

    You might also try fully making him the specialist, so he has only a pistol and stamina restrictions.

    Another Idea would be to assign a spot that the fox (specialist) must try to get to. If he gets to the extract spot, then they win. That would turn it into more of a escort gametype. In the escort gametype, the other team wouldn't have a beacon to the fox.
     
  13. Harper [Jgkdo]

    Harper [Jgkdo] New Member

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    I don't want to make a specialist clone. Foxhunt should simply be a more meaningful and team-oriented game mode than TDM. In addition this game mode is intendend to be playable even with quite a few players, so stamina and loadout restrictions won't be applied to the fox since it would put him at even greater risk than he is now.
    And considering the scenario I outlined it would be pretty stupid for the defenders to put a bulls eye (different uniform) on the fox so the attackers have an easier job killing him.

    @ant:
    I think its realistic that you need more attackers than defenders to capture an area, so I will implement this check. This would mean that there will be some ini setting changes in the next version again since you won't need the DefendersNeeded setting any longer.
    A maximum defender setting sounds interesting too (fixed value), I just have to make sure that setting up DTAS doesn't get to complicated with all those ini settings (I am not responsible for any exploding brains due to exposure to the DTAS ini ;))
    Concerning the FlagPlaceTime any positive value (even 0) should be perfectly save. Who told you and how long ago was it (more or less than 14 days)?
    I imagine it might have happened in 1.22 because back then the time between two rounds was measured, then there was BufferTime and lots of calculations and checks before the flag was placed. I just can't recollect all of it properly.
    Now to the last point, the INF player's best friend, the scoreboard ;)
    IMO it isn't the scoreboard that is the problem. The problem is how some player interpret it. When someone take a look at the scoreboard and think that he ruled because he fragged most, he isn't really interested in a team oriented game mode (that is the view I have about most TDM-only players, you can flame me, but that's my oppinion)
    The question you have to ask yourself at this point is: What does hurt DTAS more, too few people to have a decent match (or DTAS at all) or many players with some fraggers on steroids?
    With a very informational scoreboard DTAS might attract some more people. Maybe not the ones who will watch your back, but enough to start the server filling process until it finally doesn't matter anymore whether there is a rambo running around.
    Considering your example of the one staying with the flag in defender rounds. If his team does a good job and kill of the attacker he won't die in these rounds, so his death-roundsplayed difference will increase and he will rise in the scoreboard. If his team fails then he will finally get his chance to save the day for them by providing a last line of defense. In both situations he is the one who will most likely ends up on top of the scoreboard.

    One final comment:
    DTAS is about teamplay, but it depends on the players whether they exercise it or not.
     
  14. ant75

    ant75 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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    Thx for considering my suggestions.
    About the flagplacetime, shan told me it didn't work well, but i think the last time he tried messing with this setting was with crowze's version. If it works now lets just hope admins will consider putting a lower value than 15 sec.
    About the scoreboard, even though you have valid points, i still don't know why people would want such information, when the only thing that should really matter is whether the team won or not. Anyway, except for this last concern, dtas as it is now is very close to the dtas i've always dreamt of.
     
  15. {GD}Odie3

    {GD}Odie3 You Give Odie a Boner

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    I do not care how many ini files settings you have, as long as you have a good readme.txt. Ini settings = Great for the Admin.

    If I was to guess, this is most likely true in Shan's case. Once you find that something is buggy you leave it the hell alone (at least I do).
     
  16. zeep

    zeep :(

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    Nice dtas production going on.:tup:

    I dont like kills in the scoreboard much. Since it allows for tdm minded gameplay. Ofcourse tdm can happen in any gamemode but i think as long as kills aren't shown then there may be less motivation to do it.

    Also dont cut the flagplacing time too short. The flagplacing remains an important part of the game. Maybe also make randomteamspawn even more random. But i guess the latter is difficult because it needs pathnodes and some maps have few of them at some locations.

    I cant really comment on more things before i've played some online but i hardly have time.

    Oh and kinda OT , this is what someone said about DTAS a while ago ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Cleeus[JgKdo]

    Cleeus[JgKdo] because respawns suck

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    obviously, he switched his compass of ;)
     
  18. Harper [Jgkdo]

    Harper [Jgkdo] New Member

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    New version coming ;)

    The ini setting bFixedCapTime was replaced with bStrongDefense, look into the readme part to get the general idea. The idea of having a MaxDefendersNeeded can be simulated by setting DefendersNeeded to one less, and setting DefenderTimeIncrease high enough that even all attackers won't be able to bring it down to below MaxCapTime again.
    Concerning the kills you can make a poll or thread about it if you want to. When the arguments are convincing and most serious DTAS players feel that way I have no problem with removing kill display again or at least restricting it that every player only see his kills.

    It might be better if you tell a developer about it. Against common believe we don't eat people who report bugs ;)

    ChangeLog:
    (InfilDTAS 1.44)
    - (change) ini setting bFixedCapTime is now called bStrongDefense because of altered functionality (view README)
    - (change) changed information shown by "mutate tasstatus" to include Foxhunt
    - (change) attackers need at least one more soldier than there are defenders in capture range
    - (change) removed BroadcastStatusInterval from ini
    - (feature) added "mutate DTASServerInfo" to learn the current server settings

    README.TXT:
    Variable capture times
    ======================

    With version 1.42 some new ini options were introduced.
    The most important one is bStrongDefense which toggles between the standard DTAS attack/defense configuration (DefendersNeeded could defend against anything) and a new more dynamic defense approach.
    When disabling bStronDefense, some other ini options are used: AttackerTimeDecrease, DefenderTimeIncrease and MaxCapTime.
    AttackerTimeDecrease and DefenderTimeIncrease adjusts how much an additional attacker/defender (more than needed) will ease/complicate the capture process. Be aware that there still must be at least AttackersNeeded attackers in the area and there must be fewer defenders, too.
    MaxCapTime sets a upper time limit how long a capture process may take.

    One example: CapTime=15, AttackersNeeded=2, DefendersNeeded=2, bFixedCapTime=False, AttackerTimeDecrease=10, DefenderTimeIncrease=30, MaxCapTime=25
    Imagine there are two defenders in range of the flag. As soon as there are three attackers within the area they will start to capture the flag. They need at least one more soldier against two defender plus they receive a time bonus of 10 seconds because they have one more attacker than AttackersNeeded.
    Now another defender enters the objective area. Because there are now more Defenders than DefendersNeeded, they gain a time increase of 30 seconds which would put the capture time to 45 seconds.
    The attacker are now unable to capture, first because the capture time exceeds the MaxCapTime and second because they don't dominate the defender anymore.
    If another attacker enters the area they would dominate the defenders again and putting the capture time back to 35. However this is still more than the MaxCapTime, so they still don't start capturing.
    Only if another attacker enters the area he will put back the capture time to 25 seconds which is good enough for a capture.
    Let's summarize this example:
    - 2 att/1- def = capture in 15 seconds
    - 3 att/2- def = capture in 5 seconds
    - 5 att/3 def = capture in 25 seconds
    - 7 att/4 def = capture in 25 seconds
    - 10 att/5 def = capture in 25 seconds
    ...
     

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  19. zeep

    zeep :(

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    My brain can't keep up with your fast updates!
    How about making an Inf-lite mutie for UT2K4 since you're a code-freak?! ;)

    Oh and rename the readme -> DTAS_Readme.txt or something so i cant whine about that.
     
  20. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    Maybe you could put this information on the HUD? It'd be nice to have an easy way for attackers to know if more people are needed, and how long the cap will take/time remaining to cap.
     

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