Do we really need hitscan?

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Wowbagger

Curing the infection...
May 20, 2000
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Hmm i read your previous post now and i realise people are talking about different things.
My post was about the weapon types themselves.

Making the sniper bullet a projectile sounds interesting but otoh where does that leave my favorite gun, SR?
I mean a UT without the SR combo is a NONO!
 
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Israphel

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Sep 26, 2004
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Don't worry, the Shock rifle is in UT2k7 :) You can see it in the gameplay video from E3.

Aenubis is probably the LAST person on this forum to argue that the SR should be taken out (look at his sig), and I don't believe anyone here really wants "10 different rocket launchers". I won't be sorry to see the back of the mini and the AR, the SR will stay, which just leaves the LG and Sniper open to debate. I like the LG, but one of the points behind this thread (and others) has been, not that ALL hitscan should go, but that there is too much of it. To have the LG and SR in the same map, and the fact that hitscan is one of the harder skills to learn, means that new players are faced with good players who can kill them without them getting close. Now, I'm not saying that that is completely wrong, but removing ONE hitscan weapon like the LG will slightly level the playing field without nerfing skilled players.

I for one am in favour of a projectile weapon that sits somewhere inbetween the sniper and the LG. Not hitscan, but very fast moving (like the tank shell). Not a bullet, but some kind of railgun with a sniper scope.

From what I've seen from the E3 video, the rockets move A LOT faster, as does the flak primary, then with things like the link and the cannister, there'll be planty of variety.
 

gregori

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May 5, 2005
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Baile Atha Cliath, Eireann
Can anybody think of a good reason why at the height of technology in the future, people will make weapons that slow the projectiles down so you can dodge them?
It stands to reason that they will be actually faster than now so replacing all hitscan with projectiles is clearly dumb and a waste of bandwidth. Jesus, if they could only make them faster than instant hit!, ah well!

Point is UT should be more about shooting stuff up close and personal as opposed to dodging and avoiding a 1000ft away and hitscan has its place in the series.
 

carmatic

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Jan 31, 2004
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i think that hitscan = 1000ft away, for every other situation you either have an IG'ers aim, or you choose between all the other weapons you can use

in fact even the rocket launcher should be able to work well over long distances , in open areas where your target is not dodging around etc etc, when you keep your crosshair on them long enough they'll lock and unless your target goes out of sight, all he will hear is just a swoosh and a loud bang
works even better if the rockets move as fast as they do in the e3 footage...
 

-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
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Weapons, weapons, weapons.

I'm not saying all hit-scan should go. The ASMD prime, and link shaft are fine. I don't mind an instant beam with no zoom. The RoF could be slowed a bit, and maybe damage tweaked, but yes, it is needed for combos, and not a bad thing to have (one beam weapon option - it's two that gets silly).

Rockets, if the scale and movement is more like UT, could go back to the way they were in UT. It was much easier to achieve a lock back then, and the rocket was capable of 3 or 4 very sharp turns. It wouldn't veer back towards it's owner, would only travel in the 180º it was shot into, but easier lock, paired with the fact that it also accellerated (slow up close, but sped up at distance) made it much more useful at long ranges. At current, yeah, it sucks for anything but being up close.

At current, from what we know about the weapons, here are my "takes".

Impact Hammer - It's back, much rejoicing. Secondary fire is ytbd. I wouldn't mind seeing a deflection capability, like a tweaked version of the original, or maybe a full charge punch, that naturally doesn't auto fire, but good for people who learn to time their melee attacks, or want to do quick jump, etc...

Enforcers - Back again. They can be hit-scan as well, though I fast moving bullet wouldn't be bad either. Same RoF and Cone as it's predecessors, and damage as well would prolly still be appropriate. Making it a bullet projectile might be grounds to up the damage or the RoF, not both. Either way, I don't care, 'cause I'd use the Hammer until I got two of them anyways.

Canister - Didn't play U2, so I can't really comment on changing ammos, etc. I imagine it will rarely be dicated by a map that is has multiple ammos in it, depending on the nature of Grenades, currently, we have two different kinds of grenades, both appropriate for certain gametypes. If they comprimise them, then who knows. I'd like to see goo back to more of how it was in UT (in all ways) but this is the weapon I'm most uncertain about. Not worried though, I mostly trust Epic.

ASMD Shock Rifle - Here to stay, physics wise, probably not changing. Hit-scan beam, projectile core. Damage on both now is fine, though I'd like to see the beam RoF back to the way it was in UT. If not, either less knock back, or less damage (not both), especially now since we lack the SG. Really can't say where I think they will go with cores, and combos, though I have feeling they will be much like either UT2004, or UT.

Link Gun - Again, I like it how it is. Rapid fire hit-scan balanced by limited range. Bolts will get more lethal if the player scale goes up, they may not need to change at all (since right now they are hard as hell to use). The only thing I might like to see added would be some very small splash maybe on the bolts, but may not be a good idea if player scale makes them more lethal.

Stinger - The potential for a fully projectile "minigun" style weapon is here. It's got style, it's Unreal. It could be ½/½ hit-scan and projectile, like UC2 (from what I'm told). It could be taken a step further, and make to be all projectile. Dunno how big a fan I am of the "seeking projectiles" concept, but from hearing how it was balanced, I think it could work well, since the only seek one target, not whatever is near them. The warming up concep I don't mind at all, especially if they are projectile, because you have time to avoid it... IE: get the hell outta there. I'd be happy simply with a projectile crystal shooting version of our current mini, but they will prolly change it up slightly more imaginatively then that.

Flak - Most stuff about flak will never change. I dig the current "one bounce" rule on shards. Damge for it are ok, some could be jacked up a little, but then so could chunk RoF. Major change I'd like to see is some skill put back into bomb use. Less bomb damage, less bomb blast radius, more shards from bomb, and more gravity interaction with bomb shards. Bombs used to be used like distance chunk: Fire it from where you wanna chunk from, and the shards extend from there. This was really cool when planting a bomb on a targets neck. Now it's much too much like a RL with lob, and the occasional random chunk off the ceiling.

Rocket Launcher - I prefer the 3 load, and no grens, very good for spam reduction. Most aspects of this weapon as of late are good. Damage could be a little better, but as such, would have to move rocket speed back to UT, with slow up front, to be accelerated for longer ranges. Mainly, the biggest change I want to see is easier locks. Locking really isn't extraordinarily useful now, and is hard as hell to do. One or the other I'm fine with. I think, though, lock difficulty is just due to player scaling, so it at least should be fixed.

Sniper Rifle - The big mystery. Creatively, the LtG was a phenominal idea. A sniper weapon that shoots lightning, and gibs people or lights peoples heads on fire. What more could you want? It's removal IMO must have a good reason, and the only one that I can dream up is they want the sniper weapon to be projectle. Can't make lightning projectile. I don't like the idea of a traditional sniper -bullet firing- "rifle", so I hope they come up with something creative. Something with a bright glowing, projectile round, easy traceability, without having to cloud your face, something that doesn't have that point and click ease, and takes some skill to fire, and something that is balanced for maybe more damage then current. Slightly increased Rof maybe, but most importantly, hightened switch away time. LtG's most lethal aspect it's the ability to bail on it when somone is in close. Also, it if interacts with the world in a way that justifies gibs, then all the better. At least taking off body parts consistantly. We currently have limb dismemberment, and applying that to a sniper weapon, so that whateverbody part you shoot, lops off would be awesome, even if not quite as cool as a bellyshot over kill with lighning gibbing your entire torso and up.

As you may hopefully now be able to tell, most of my view and opinions aren't based simply on what I am good with, or think is cool, etc... This game has "personality", and that is why most of us who love it do. Weapon balance, as well as maintaining that "personality" is what it's all about. Sub 50 pings are making it really hard to balance hit-scan.
 

FireCrack

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May 25, 2004
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Oh yeah, i have no problem with that, except mabye the 1/2 : 1/2 hitscan : projectile thing on the stinger wich would make it awkward to use, all or nothing i say. My main point was that at typacal UT engagement ranges and character speeds projectiles might not be as big a difference as in say tribes where peole are whissing around like jet planes. Either way, as long as the tracers get synced with damage i'm happy. Also as long as the shock stays instahit as well as the sniper.
 

-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
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Can't agree on the hit-scan sniper... but another point I'd stress, is that fast moving projectiles at non-tribes like ranges can feel close enough to hit-scan, most people won't even be able to tell the difference.

As far as tracers synchronized with damage, do you mean via amount, or when they contact? If it's amount, that is effected I believe by the world setting, and on "Holy Shît" settings, there is a tracer per bullet, or at least a lot closer to it. It still amazes me when I see my roomate use the mini secondary (the more accurate one). There is almost a solid stream of tracers on his screen. I usually see one per 5 bullets or so, if not less.
 

1337

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Jun 23, 2004
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gregori said:
Can anybody think of a good reason why at the height of technology in the future, people will make weapons that slow the projectiles down so you can dodge them?
That isn't a valid point, as this is a spectator sport with a controlled environment. What is more exciting? Trying to hitscan someone all the way across the map with -20% accuracy? Or actually getting in there and getting your hands dirty.

The waste of bandwidth part might be valid though. As it depends on how fast sniper rifle projectile will go and how much it will affect gameplay, because if has it is no affect to gameplay and requires more information to be communicated between the server and clients then it is indeed, a waste of bandwidth.
 

T2A`

I'm dead.
Jan 10, 2004
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Sniper rifles should be hard to use, IMO. Maybe not on the order of the Rainbox Six series, but something similar. High damage but low rate of fire (which then affects switch-away time) seems like the best thing to do. There's really no reason to have a fast-firing sniper rifle because then it's just a more powerful shock primary, which is powerful enough. I'm writing a simple mutator to raise the damage on the lightning to 85 while slowing down the firing rate to see what happens. :p
 

Silas Mercury

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May 28, 2005
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Hitscan weapons currently cannot fire through warpzones, I'm not sure if the editor in UT2007 will work the same way or not but it's very troublesome to be able to see your target and fire your gun, only to have the ammo dissapear in midair.
 

kafros

F1 manta tryouts
Jan 21, 2005
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I post it already in this thread but here it goes again:)

The easiest solution to hitscan balance problems can be solved by making the damage proportional to distance. As it is now, the further away your target is the easier it is to hit with the SR, and as many ppl said in the thread that gives players a safety distance. If they make damage drop in proportion to that "safety distance" then they can keep ROF as is with out the domination of hitscan.
 

lucifur

68.232.183.18:7777 Redeemer/Nali Server
Nov 19, 2009
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I learned something again, I don't play on public servers that often but I never herd the spamming thing before.

What you guys are calling spamming I have all ways called "cover fire" a typical tactic used to disorient the enemy and possibly soften the enemy up as a bonus.

Also my connection isn't that great and my ping is generally around 100 to 200 on average while every body else is in the 60s and 80s, were they can pull the trigger on a high velocity weapon and get good results I tend to have to take lag into account,... and spreading an apparent random fire in the direction of an opponent is a useful tactic.

my rule of thump is to take advantage of every passable scenario, unless it's a true glitch.

Interesting.

Shane
 
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