Turns2Ashes said:
I love that weapon 
And no, hitscan shouldn't be a no-no in the UT world. It would almost make me not buy the 2k7 version if there wasn't any hitscan weapons.
Do we really need hitscan?
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I love that weapon And no, hitscan shouldn't be a no-no in the UT world. It would almost make me not buy the 2k7 version if there wasn't any hitscan weapons.
I(!) am not saying they should ditch it completely. that would be bad yes.
But they should limit them!
But they should limit them!
Israphel said:
being a quake 3 arena player before UT, (UT is better imho) but the railgun, was my favourite weapon, simply, because unlike most weapons, skill is needed to be able to actually hit a player, (while i still enjoy them) weapons like the rocket launcher and flak cannon, can easily become spam weapons.
also the beam can be colour customized, and that rox0rs.
obviously i wouldnt want to see a rip off the railgun, but if the developers can do it right, i think it would be a good addition.
I wouldn't mind having only one hitscan weapon. As it would be the asmd, and well I just love the asmd.
Just as long as they ditch the sniper, I'll be happy.
Just as long as they ditch the sniper, I'll be happy.
Projectile Spam: Defined.
This whole skill = hit-scan association is really retarded. It takes a bit of skill to use hit-scan, or do anything in this game, don't get me wrong, but I think people have this seriously false conclusion about how projectile fire "can be used".
Everyone has a different definition of spam is seems, but one of the common ones seems to be firing at someone you can't see, achieved by exploiting the time it takes a projectile to reach it's target. This concept in itself is mostly balanced, and one on the recieving end of said fire can prevent it from happening to him or her, and that is a greater skill then use of any hit-scan weapon IMNSHO.
Ears are your friends. Pickups, and moving predictably are not. These are the first two lessons in preventing from being "spammed by projectile fire". If you can see it comeing, if you can see your attackers weapons' barrel, then him hitting you with said projectile fire takes far more skill then him using a hit-scan weapon at that time.
If you fire at somone you can't see, then that is either an educated guess: balanced by your ability to anicipate your opponent, dicatating whether you do damage, or waste ammo, supressive fire: forcing your opponent to take a different direction, or take damage, or use of senses other then your eyes: firing at known locations of sound cues.
You can class any non-sight driven projectile fire into one of those categories, and at any given time, I consider none of them luck on either side, good or bad. A mistake is made by someone each time, and that mistake is paid for in some way by that person. If you think it has anything to do with skill vs luck, or lack there of, there is simply something about that situation you are not considering, and you prolly have something to learn from it.
In case your curious, my personal definition of spam, is one spraying a weapon, constantly, without intent of letting up on the fire of said weapon, usually less then aimed, sometimes "pointed", and doing so regardless of change of situation, or action of target. For the most part I would consider spam in this game non-existant in most of the gametypes, and situations I play in. Minigun use being a rare exception.
This whole skill = hit-scan association is really retarded. It takes a bit of skill to use hit-scan, or do anything in this game, don't get me wrong, but I think people have this seriously false conclusion about how projectile fire "can be used".
Everyone has a different definition of spam is seems, but one of the common ones seems to be firing at someone you can't see, achieved by exploiting the time it takes a projectile to reach it's target. This concept in itself is mostly balanced, and one on the recieving end of said fire can prevent it from happening to him or her, and that is a greater skill then use of any hit-scan weapon IMNSHO.
Ears are your friends. Pickups, and moving predictably are not. These are the first two lessons in preventing from being "spammed by projectile fire". If you can see it comeing, if you can see your attackers weapons' barrel, then him hitting you with said projectile fire takes far more skill then him using a hit-scan weapon at that time.
If you fire at somone you can't see, then that is either an educated guess: balanced by your ability to anicipate your opponent, dicatating whether you do damage, or waste ammo, supressive fire: forcing your opponent to take a different direction, or take damage, or use of senses other then your eyes: firing at known locations of sound cues.
You can class any non-sight driven projectile fire into one of those categories, and at any given time, I consider none of them luck on either side, good or bad. A mistake is made by someone each time, and that mistake is paid for in some way by that person. If you think it has anything to do with skill vs luck, or lack there of, there is simply something about that situation you are not considering, and you prolly have something to learn from it.
In case your curious, my personal definition of spam, is one spraying a weapon, constantly, without intent of letting up on the fire of said weapon, usually less then aimed, sometimes "pointed", and doing so regardless of change of situation, or action of target. For the most part I would consider spam in this game non-existant in most of the gametypes, and situations I play in. Minigun use being a rare exception.
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Generally hitscan is as much skill as opening up the start bar. It takes alot to make hit scan a skill, which in 2k4 frankly there's alot. All the movement and associated latency means that the genuinely hard shots are skill, there are the odd hard targets (moving xlocs) but generally the idea that you can shoot someone a couple of times down a hallway being skillful is retarded. If you're picking off someone's head whilst in mid air and they're dodgjumping down some platform, then yeah, there's alot of movement & prediction in that, added to latency and you have a prediction shot which is, essentially, not hitscan.
So IG fanbois saying that hitscan is pure skill, nah. The skill comes from much more than point & click.
So IG fanbois saying that hitscan is pure skill, nah. The skill comes from much more than point & click.
Dark Pulse
Dolla, Dolla. Holla, Holla.
T2A: I always refer to the "Classic" damage numbers. The ones most people think of are the "Hardcore" ones, which is 150% of the Classic number. 45 x 1.5 = 67.5, which in UT would be rounded up to 68.
Either way, the point I tried to make was in UT, there was hitscan, but it was pretty balanced. In 200x, Hitscan is king. It should be in there, yes, but toned down a bit - which it should be, since Epic has stated it will return to more of that "In your face" feel.
Either way, the point I tried to make was in UT, there was hitscan, but it was pretty balanced. In 200x, Hitscan is king. It should be in there, yes, but toned down a bit - which it should be, since Epic has stated it will return to more of that "In your face" feel.
Hitscan was NOT BALANCED in UT.
Sniper's rate of fire, shock's rate of fire & damage and more importantly, the minigun's ROF & Damage made them king. Hence the big changes. But i would've rather they kept the body damage down on the LtG.
Sniper's rate of fire, shock's rate of fire & damage and more importantly, the minigun's ROF & Damage made them king. Hence the big changes. But i would've rather they kept the body damage down on the LtG.
Dark Pulse
Dolla, Dolla. Holla, Holla.
I noted the Sniper. The Shock ROF is good, but the Damage should be at about the 2k4 level. As for the Mini... well, I've moved enough and outlasted someone's full Mini ho-ing attempt.
Thing is that for non- fragging based games, like onslaught, if you dont have hitscan weapons like turrets or lighning guns, it becomes far too easy to attack from a distance with a stream of primary link or rockets for example. By the time you take out the attacker with a projectile, he will have a large barrage of various projectiles landing on your undefendable target.
So as ever, there has to be a balance.
So as ever, there has to be a balance.
You have to be exposed to a fast moving projectile to understand it, apparently.
Use the Halo sniper, or Tribes: V chaingun, and you will realize hit-scan is not necessary. They can make projectiles fast enough to traverse that long distance faster then a rocket or pulse bolt. It doesn't mean that "you might as well use rockets, and not snipe, because they are just as fast, and do splash."
...and yes, agree that certain exceptions with hit-scan take some skill. Most of my favorite ones include when your target isn't in your pov less then a second before you fire. I would just like to see those down the hall on the same latitutde shots take some skill.
Use the Halo sniper, or Tribes: V chaingun, and you will realize hit-scan is not necessary. They can make projectiles fast enough to traverse that long distance faster then a rocket or pulse bolt. It doesn't mean that "you might as well use rockets, and not snipe, because they are just as fast, and do splash."
...and yes, agree that certain exceptions with hit-scan take some skill. Most of my favorite ones include when your target isn't in your pov less then a second before you fire. I would just like to see those down the hall on the same latitutde shots take some skill.
BooGiTyBoY
The ImPaCt-DaMpeNeD BooGeRaToR
ons and conquest will have huge open areas.
I'd like to see the new sniper weapon limited by gametype. Problem solved.
I'd like to see the new sniper weapon limited by gametype. Problem solved.
Because they don't have to be so uber fast that you can't tell the difference.
I'll say this in a short post, so it's more likely to be read, and understood.
Imagine shooting a sniper weapon that feels like it's at a 100 ping at a mid-long range.
It would naturally lessen slightly the closer to the target you are, but would hence still require some leading, and anticipation of your targets movement.
Anticipation, and triangulation = skill.
Clicking on your start button ≠ skill.
I'll say this in a short post, so it's more likely to be read, and understood.
Imagine shooting a sniper weapon that feels like it's at a 100 ping at a mid-long range.
It would naturally lessen slightly the closer to the target you are, but would hence still require some leading, and anticipation of your targets movement.
Anticipation, and triangulation = skill.
Clicking on your start button ≠ skill.
Hehe.. this start button thing could get a following.
Real Pros don't whine, and IGers are the best at clicking Start.
Real Pros don't whine, and IGers are the best at clicking Start.
so basically all the ut community wants is all weapons to be a variation of the rocket launcher? in 2k4 you have your hitscan, splash damge(projectiles) and you spam weapons. and just about every reply here sayss drop them all and put in all new rocket launchers. sounds like fun. and in a conquest map do you expect to hit a guy from across the map with a rocket? the 4 maps spliced togeather? i dont htink so. im gonna want some hitscan. enless they make flak so fast you can hit people in an instint from across the map. 
Yeah, because all the link gun really is, is a modified rocket launcher
Before shooting "across 4 maps spliced together" you gotta worry about seeing "across 4 maps spliced together", then assess the realism of being able to have any impact on anything happening at the peak of your visions distance.
Before shooting "across 4 maps spliced together" you gotta worry about seeing "across 4 maps spliced together", then assess the realism of being able to have any impact on anything happening at the peak of your visions distance.
To answer the top post, YES, yes we do.
Its all about variation and the fact that people like different ways to play.
Some of the skill and challenge of this game is the decisions we make, "switch to LG now, or Flak or SR? etc.
If we had only 10 different RL:s it would get boring quickly
Its all about variation and the fact that people like different ways to play.
Some of the skill and challenge of this game is the decisions we make, "switch to LG now, or Flak or SR? etc.
If we had only 10 different RL:s it would get boring quickly
Who says variation would be lost? That is an un-educated assumption. There is currently vast differences between shock cores, link bolts, rockets, bio and grenades. What makes you think that if a sniper bullet was made to be projectile, it wouldn't be unique in comparison?
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