Cones

[Rostam]

As for scopes, implenting a wobble would have advantages. For example, in huge maps the grid effect wouldn't bother you as you could time your shots. One thing I still don't get is how on earth you can mis-align a rifle while you are not moving. I've only had experience with a 4x20 scope but still, aligning the rifle was probably the easiest part of shooting while in INF it won't work unless you control your breath.

By the way I don't know many people that can precisely fire a pistol beyond 50 meters, because the sights on pistols are just so close to each other (and like Yurch mentioned, no stock). So managing to implent this would probably be better. Then again I don't know that much about firearms.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I only hope the SS team is taking notes from the New Version Suggestions Forum and some interesting threads in this forum.

 

[Psychomorph]

One thing I still don't get is how on earth you can mis-align a rifle while you are not moving. I've only had experience with a 4x20 scope but still, aligning the rifle was probably the easiest part of shooting.

I noticed too, that when I´m fit and rested, I align the sights easily automatical just by pointing them forward and can hold them for a long time with just few slight mis-alignments (a matter of micrometers).
But when I´m tired and arms are tired, it's much harder to keeping them aligning just by pointing the sights, but I have just a slight misalignment few times, I have to concentrate (control) more.

So it should be in INF. When rested controlling the sights should be a matter only of extreme ranges. When tired controling becomes more used, but rather on middle-to-distant ranges. When proning you just not need to control the sight, only on extreme distances when tired.

By the way I don't know many people that can precisely fire a pistol beyond 50 meters, because the sights on pistols are just so close to each other (and like Yurch mentioned, no stock). So managing to implent this would probably be better. Then again I don't know that much about firearms.

I can keep pistol sights pretty accurate, but the problem is the leak of stock, the weapon always sways a very bit around. Controlling the weapon can reduce the sway for few miliseconds, but the sway is always there, even if I am rested.
Also I noticed, that when moving and than stopping, trying to aim accurate after the movement, the recovery of alignment takes slightly longer with pistols in comaprison with rifles.
And when you're tired the pistol sway is even harder and nearly impossible to control.

In INF you see the sights misalign, but IMO thats not the case in real life, I can align the pistol sight very good, but the whole pistol is hard to keep at one point, the arms just sway around, even if it is just a bit.
I´m not a robot to be able to keep the pistol with streched arms pinpoint accurate.

That (the sway) I think is the main problem with pistols. And I would like the pistols to be a close range weapon, it pretty much is, except few snipe shots.


P.S. A strange thing I noticed, that holding a stockless rifle (which means one arm at the front-grip, the other at the back) has less sway. The reason is, because the arm at the grip is bend and gives you more comfort to keep it steady.
The front arm at the front-grip is what is affected by sway slightly more and cause very slight misalignment.
Beeing tired makes aiming stockless weapon much worse than supported.

I only hope the SS team is taking notes from the New Version Suggestions Forum and some interesting threads in this forum.

They 100%ly do. The problem is, do they like what they read? Even if some stuff might be good, the question is the feasibility.
I try to keep my suggestion the way where I (imo) think they is a chance for feasibility. Few times I go a bit to far into theory. But it's all SentryStudios' decision.
Do not forget they have their own ideas and those might be supperior to our more than we might think, but generally because they 'know' what they can do and what not.

I just hope they expant the next INF more toward realism and dynamic (the right 1st person creates a more dynamic feel and more satisfaction playing the game).

 

[Psychomorph]

Just wanted to add. They is just one kind of weapon inaccuracy, SWAY.

Misalignment is a produkt of sway. When you have a longer weapon held with both arms at different points (front and rear) the arms sway independantly and create the sight misalignment.

Since a supported weapon eliminates the rear sway (if no hard breath, movement and other problems) and is just affected by a slight frontsway, it is very effective.

Pistols are held with both (or one) hands at one and the same grip, thats why they is no problem to keep the sights 100%ly aligned (except you do not care, or can't due to movement). But the streched arms create a single sway and due to leak of support they sway even more.

Strangely, holding a weapon unsupported with both arms at different grips creates a bit of support, but is still affected by sway that creates misalignment.

 

[Rostam]

Psych, are you sure? I freeze my shoulder, head and right arm when holding a rifle. Because of this once I have aligned the sights or scope (which takes almost no time) it is next to impossible to mis-align. I haven't received any training but I rarely miss a shot right now anyway so I must be doing *something* right.

 

[Psychomorph]

No Rostam, I wasn't contradicting you. I can align the rifle sight instantly for long time, as you said I freeze the arm.

I just meant that IF they is slightly sway of the supported (buttstocked) weapon, than it is caused by the front arm under circumstances of tireness.

The rearpart sways if you are out of breath and can't reduce the breathing-bob completely.

But they is always a bit sway that overcomes you when holding the sights still, it's just so minimal and happens few times. You can't tell me that you hold the sights as accurate like the rifle is fixed to a crane, they is always some sort of tremble.
Don't know, maybe aiming a scope you do not notice those slight 'sway attacks', since they is no rear and front sight.


Can't tell for scopes, my single scope experience is binoculars held at a longer pale and aiming it like a rifle . It wasn't easy to hold the binoculars, but I think I could 'aim' pretty accurate.
I tried to crouch-and-move and the scope sway was never so huge like in INF (aswell ironsights).

 

[Rostam]

I push the rifle against my shoulder so the back is not able to move, only the front. I've had more experience with iron sights than with scopes. I can see how this might be different when tired but otherwise I don't think the butt of the rifle ever moves. Again it might have to do with my lack of training, my rifle is not a firearm so maybe things would be different if kick would be involved (and I would have to adjust my stance).

 

[Psychomorph]

I think too, that actually the problem aiming accurate should not come from misalignment caused by pure aiming (as said, except if tired very much), but mainly from recoil, that affects you more negative ás worse your stance is, but after the shot the rifle should be aligned automatical, as you do in real life (of course not to the previous position, but just sight realign).

Controlling the weapon by holding the aim-key should be done when tired, where aligning takes some effort and can be done only for a short time.


P.S. Well the recoil thingy is discussed in the new suggestions forum.

-Edit-
Ok, checked again.
Aiming with buttstock has not really misalignment, since the head is lying at the buttstock, the right arm presses the buttstock to the shoulder. Just a very tinny bit frontsight sway-misalignment is noticeable (the tired you are, the more).
Mainly such a wepon position is slightly but not so seriously affected by sway, it looks like tremble, but more fluid.

And I did a stomach breath, which didn't moved/bobbed the shoulder. Only real tireness could make the breath less controlable and would create more weapon sway, where you would need to hold/reduce breath by holding the aim-key.

Turning to the side fast while aiming a rifle always creates misalignment. The less the movement of the weapon is the more steady the sight stays.


Aiming buttstockless makes the front and rear sight swaying independantly, which creates misalignment. Tireness can be hardly controlled. Movement of the weapon makes the misalignment more.


Aiming pistols, you have no problems to align the sights near 100% accurate. Turning to the side fast (horizontally) misaligns the sight only a very bit. Looking down and up misaligns the pistol sight vertically more.


-Edit2-
I think high magnification scopes (sniper) are really affected by sway and every tinny bit of movement. They need to control breath even when not tired and take a good posture. But I don't know about high magnificant scopes.

 

[yurch]

So then I may as well ask Yurch, since I've already caught his attention. Is what I'm asking A: Reasonable and B: Easy to impliment

The pattern illustrated at the top of the thread appears to be created by a spinning bullet that isn't quite perfect. To completely model this you would need to change the direction of the bullet in code constantly as it flies downrange. This is doable, but with the way uscript works, the bullet will undergo substantial time where it's direction will be fixed. I don't remember the interval, but think of uscript as only capable of changing direction every 1/10th of a second, for instance. There are native acceleration and velocity functions - as I have already implementated in inf's air-resistance and drop functions - the change in acceleration is the only thing needed to be adjusted on the interval.

Something so subtle would be obscenely hard to test.

I noticed too, that when I´m fit and rested, I align the sights easily automatical just by pointing them forward and can hold them for a long time with just few slight mis-alignments (a matter of micrometers).

Due to a short barrel, any "misalignment" on the pistol is proportunately higher. (read: short sight radius) An angle that "misaligns" a sight with elements a meter apart will not be apparent when the sight elements are three inches apart.

It may look just as steady, but it is not.

 

[Nukeproof]

It is.

Instead of determining one value for random missalingment you generate multiple of smaller range and just add them to final missalignment. This way you get a Gauss'ian normal distribution.

(i.e. instead of one dice [1-6] you flip 5 coins [0-1] sum it up and add +1... still Range of 1-6 but values 3 and 4 way more likely)

But it'll take a statistic expert to tell the difference in game....

Oh, well I thought the question was "how to get realistic grouping with confire?" ... nevermind

 

[Psychomorph]

Oh, well I thought the question was "how to get realistic grouping with confire?" ... nevermind

*shakes fist at nuke*

 

[Nukeproof]

Hey, shaking fists is Geo's job!

 

[Kitty.cat]

I'm amazed at how philosophical and metaphysical this thread has become.

It's too bad we can't really do anything about our bullet trajectory with UScript. Maybe Yurch's RA idea is the best way to go, and just have more realistic aiming sways and misallignment factors.