British Gun Ban Still Slaughtering Its People

[DLL]

I have a feeling that you guys think we (Americans) are attacking Britain. I don't think anyone here intended to attack your country or bruise your national pride. Let me be the first to say that I am almost entirely ignorant of life in Britain.

I don't know what it is like there and I don't know if you have a gun problem or not. All I have done is state my opinions based on my limited knowledge. I count it a privilege to be able to converse with you that do have first hand knowledge of life in Britain.

Keep in mind that America was born out of oppression and our founding fathers made a great effort to impart the importance of freedom to future generations. Most Americans take our freedoms for granted. Those of us that recognize what a blessing our freedoms are to us, hold on to them and defend them with great zeal.

Our right to bear arms is something that is instilled in us at an early age. Almost everyone I know owns a gun or has fired one. I was skeet shooting this past Sunday at my aunt's house. Guns are a lot of fun and a part of my life. We don't view them as "murder weapons", but rather an extension of our natural abilities. To deny us those abilities is to deny the air we breath, an affront to our being.

Therefore it is shocking to us to know that someone else does not share our same rights. Just as shocked as you would be to know that, in another country, it was forbidden to drink ale. Even if they told that they didn't need ale, you would at least want them to have the choice to drink it or not.

 

[Pillsbury Flow Boy]

First of all, I don't post much in these forums because I'm playing games, and just got this link from a friend of mine who finds it funny that people can't give up on beliefs, and find that people are different...

ok, how about this, we take everybody who would defend their lives against somebody trying to punk them over their shoes... kill all of them, that way the meek will be left, and their will be peace... I'll definately be out of the picture by then, but I could care less because I'm tired of seeing incessant bitching about how much other countries suck because they aren't like the country of the person bitching... I'd go to england because it has history, I'd go to scotland because the air is fresh, there is a sense of calmness about that I love... I like going out into the hills, taking 100 pallets out, starting fluid, 40 or so mini propane tanks, and blowing holes in the earth... shooting the propane tanks from 200 yards, and watching them fly into the air... then when the propane tanks are gone, and we have 50 or so pallets left, busting out the 6 12 packs of smirnoff ice, and getting phat drunk with my girlfriend, listening to the roar of the river nearby, and loving life... why? not because the real world sucks, because my job sucks, because I hate living in the big city, with thousands of ignoramuses running amuk... because I love my job... I love my little apartment... pissing off the neighbors because my computer speakers are alone enough to drown out the sound of the neighbor beeting his wife and kids... or the crying of the baby that never stops... if it was up to me... I'd destroy all guns, so we have to use bow and arrows to hunt, and protect ourselves with large rocks, and obscene words and gestures... or letting my lyrical flow destroy my opponents... I have no qualms about my life, except my odd sleeping habits if you believe in yourself enough, you wouldn't have to make fun of other people, or say how much England sucks because of their crime rate... you'd say, ya... they have high crime rate, but that's because they don't have the self confidence it takes to understand that life will suck, but when it does, grab it by the throat and squeeze until it submits... then get over it... get a job, save money, go to school, and sit on your ass for a year until you can find a job that deserves your resume and you attendance... back in elementary school, and middle school I was bigger then most other kids, so I was a bully, I'd beat the crap out of the smaller kid because I hit puberty as early as some of the girls did... I was 6'2" at the end of my freshman year... 6' in 7th grade... I was a jock, basketball player, starting center for two years until I busted my knee on a rebound against a team who couldn't stand that us lowlife country bums were beating them... it took a long time to learn that fighting isn't the answer... my freshmen year I took to music to drown the ills of my life... I found the lyrical flow that stopped me from bieng a little punk, running into the school with an AK and 4 40 round banana clips... running into "Senator Square" Where all the jocks where, and mowing down a few idiots... I started rhyming... at the park by the school, gained reputation... everybody's like, "Damn can that white boy rap!" I gained the status of "the only white Ni***" <---- ya'll know that word, the mighty n word around the area with the underground hip hop scene... I quickly found glory in my ability... and guess what? I don't see people as morons because they don't believe in guns... I see somebody who can't battle... or can't rhyme the word purple with ingenous lyrical flair... rhymed the word orange with boring in a lyrical battle one day... and the other dude layed down, and submitted... he didn't bust his strap cause he was beat... when you see something like that... it makes you realise how screwed life is... when somebody pulls a gun because they got beat... because they lost a race... because they got beat by a V-8 in their 11 second street honda... because somebody is always better... if you knew the half of it... you'd know that it is NOT the gun... but it is man... it's the reason behind the war... it's the reason behind the game... the plan, if you know not, then don't strap... learn... because learning is the only key to victory, you can't automatically know everything... when you see a kid walking around the mall alone... maybe 6-7 years old, watch him, no parents... ask him if anything is wrong... that's yer first step... release the hate... find the good in people... if you can't do that... then get the hell of my planet... the human race is cannabolistic... I have faith in myself... and I won't be satisfied till I find faith in my brothers... on my dying day... if I don't see the faith there... I know I won't die happy... and I pray some nights that man could live with each other, without the hate... without the sorrow, no more suffering, and no more tears... the only tears I wanna see is tears of love, somebody died that you loved? mother died father died, that is love... you can tear for them... but tears of hate only lead to suffering... suffering leads to hate, hate leads to anger, and anger leads to whatever the hell leads to the darkside... NEO, You know where that road goes... don't go down that road... follow the righ path, and salvation shall be had... and stuff... ok, enough for me... thank you all, and have a nice day!

 

[Limbo]

W00T NO ALE!!!!!


GADS MAN WHat sort of a world would that be??

Nice analogy, but it doesn't really hold up in the UK. We Europeans, if offered the diplomatic right to bear arms would probably vote a resounding - NO!!

We could quite easily hold what is called a referendum in the UK to force through gun ownership laws, by civil right. We are likely to have to hold one in the near future on this issue of the single European Currency.

We do not hold a referendum because the issue of guns is of no consequence to us here. We also understand about the liberty of America, and the rights you have. Try and find one Brit on this Thread who said, "America put away your Guns". Go on

For the Record...

Death by Firearms in Devizes, England : 0 (Zero, Zip, Nadda!!)

God it's a slaughter house over here!!!

 

[Limbo]

Originally posted by Pillsbury Flow Boy
First of all, I don't post much in these forums because I'm playing games, and just got this link from a friend of mine who finds it funny that people can't give up on beliefs, and find that people are different...

ok, how about this, we take everybody who would defend their lives against somebody trying to punk them over their shoes... kill all of them, that way the meek will be left, and their will be peace... I'll definately be out of the picture by then, but I could care less because I'm tired of seeing incessant bitching about how much other countries suck because they aren't like the country of the person bitching... I'd go to england because it has history, I'd go to scotland because the air is fresh, there is a sense of calmness about that I love... I like going out into the hills, taking 100 pallets out, starting fluid, 40 or so mini propane tanks, and blowing holes in the earth... shooting the propane tanks from 200 yards, and watching them fly into the air... then when the propane tanks are gone, and we have 50 or so pallets left, busting out the 6 12 packs of smirnoff ice, and getting phat drunk with my girlfriend, listening to the roar of the river nearby, and loving life... why? not because the real world sucks, because my job sucks, because I hate living in the big city, with thousands of ignoramuses running amuk... because I love my job... I love my little apartment... pissing off the neighbors because my computer speakers are alone enough to drown out the sound of the neighbor beeting his wife and kids... or the crying of the baby that never stops... if it was up to me... I'd destroy all guns, so we have to use bow and arrows to hunt, and protect ourselves with large rocks, and obscene words and gestures... or letting my lyrical flow destroy my opponents... I have no qualms about my life, except my odd sleeping habits if you believe in yourself enough, you wouldn't have to make fun of other people, or say how much England sucks because of their crime rate... you'd say, ya... they have high crime rate, but that's because they don't have the self confidence it takes to understand that life will suck, but when it does, grab it by the throat and squeeze until it submits... then get over it... get a job, save money, go to school, and sit on your ass for a year until you can find a job that deserves your resume and you attendance... back in elementary school, and middle school I was bigger then most other kids, so I was a bully, I'd beat the crap out of the smaller kid because I hit puberty as early as some of the girls did... I was 6'2" at the end of my freshman year... 6' in 7th grade... I was a jock, basketball player, starting center for two years until I busted my knee on a rebound against a team who couldn't stand that us lowlife country bums were beating them... it took a long time to learn that fighting isn't the answer... my freshmen year I took to music to drown the ills of my life... I found the lyrical flow that stopped me from bieng a little punk, running into the school with an AK and 4 40 round banana clips... running into "Senator Square" Where all the jocks where, and mowing down a few idiots... I started rhyming... at the park by the school, gained reputation... everybody's like, "Damn can that white boy rap!" I gained the status of "the only white Ni***" <---- ya'll know that word, the mighty n word around the area with the underground hip hop scene... I quickly found glory in my ability... and guess what? I don't see people as morons because they don't believe in guns... I see somebody who can't battle... or can't rhyme the word purple with ingenous lyrical flair... rhymed the word orange with boring in a lyrical battle one day... and the other dude layed down, and submitted... he didn't bust his strap cause he was beat... when you see something like that... it makes you realise how screwed life is... when somebody pulls a gun because they got beat... because they lost a race... because they got beat by a V-8 in their 11 second street honda... because somebody is always better... if you knew the half of it... you'd know that it is NOT the gun... but it is man... it's the reason behind the war... it's the reason behind the game... the plan, if you know not, then don't strap... learn... because learning is the only key to victory, you can't automatically know everything... when you see a kid walking around the mall alone... maybe 6-7 years old, watch him, no parents... ask him if anything is wrong... that's yer first step... release the hate... find the good in people... if you can't do that... then get the hell of my planet... the human race is cannabolistic... I have faith in myself... and I won't be satisfied till I find faith in my brothers... on my dying day... if I don't see the faith there... I know I won't die happy... and I pray some nights that man could live with each other, without the hate... without the sorrow, no more suffering, and no more tears... the only tears I wanna see is tears of love, somebody died that you loved? mother died father died, that is love... you can tear for them... but tears of hate only lead to suffering... suffering leads to hate, hate leads to anger, and anger leads to whatever the hell leads to the darkside... NEO, You know where that road goes... don't go down that road... follow the righ path, and salvation shall be had... and stuff... ok, enough for me... thank you all, and have a nice day!

pfffffffff *Nice One*... I've got to give THAT a Fifty, that's pure poetry

 

[DLL]

So you're saying that you have the right to bear arms... if you want it..

 

[Limbo]

Kind of. A referendum is nation wide election on one single issue.

The last one we had was on Section 28 - Teaching School Children about Gay Relationships in School.

This referendum was held due to new legislation in the European Community (EC), which recognised Equal Rights regardless of Race, Nation, Colour, Creed or Sexuality.

We voted. We said no.

Do you do this in America? You must do.

So if we wanted guns we could go through this Legal and Democratic system. But we do not, understand now?


[EDIT] And no, we are NOT weak subjects... /ME points to British Paras in Macedonia[/EDIT]

 

[RogueLeader]

Oh crap!

Mark this day in history. RL admitted to being wrong on a point. Next we'll see Bad Mojo being nice and Zundfolge advocating gun control. What is the world coming to!!

/me wonders if the Brits tortured an apology out of Rogue

If you think me apologizing for not realizing that the Brits would think something is only legal if there is a law to support it (considering they support gun bans I should have seen that), then you may be even more suprised to hear that me, Bad Mojo, and the Fur actually had a communism debate on irc yesterday, without name calling!

No you didn't. You just continually said it went up by 40%

Those statistics come FROM THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT. If you are saying they are wrong, then you are calling your government a liar. Now who is insulting Britain?

What? I didnt say anthing about that. I said how can you apply you're logic to a place you've never even been

Britain like all other governments on Earth is subservient to natural law and natural right. You can't say the British don't have rights just because of their location.

Well I dont see it slaughtering anyone, remembering that you have higher murder rates. It's only the major city centers that have the problem at all, and yet you keep preaching away that we are over run with them with no way to defend ourselves! Rubbish!

/me enters condescending mode...
Gee, let us think for a moment. Who lives at city centers? If you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point. Who do the police protect the least? if you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point. who do the police abuse? if you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point. who is faced with the most crime and thus has the biggest need for self defense? if you guessed "the poor" add on another point. Who does gun control hurt the most? If you guessed "the poor", then add another point.
Now tally up your score.
5 Points= IQ of 100+
0-4 Points= IQ of 6

Nice analogy, but it doesn't really hold up in the UK. We Europeans, if offered the diplomatic right to bear arms would probably vote a resounding - NO!!

Just one problem. The majority gets its right to rule by nature. Man also gets the right to bear arms by nature. You cannot have partial natural rights, you either have one or them all. If you vote away the right to bear arms, then you also vote away your right to vote, so you don't have the authority to get rid of guns in the first place.

Death by Firearms in Devizes, England : 0 (Zero, Zip, Nadda!!)

There were 62 people murdered with firearms in 1999-2000.

I tried to read pills' post but i think it gave me a stroke.

 

[Uppity]

Originally posted by RogueLeader

Those statistics come FROM THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT. If you are saying they are wrong, then you are calling your government a liar. Now who is insulting Britain?.

Umm, he didn't say they were wrong, just that it doesn't prove that our gun ban fails - which I totally agree with.

Originally posted by RogueLeader
Britain like all other governments on Earth is subservient to natural law and natural right. You can't say the British don't have rights just because of their location..

No, all governments are subject to the will of the poeple (at least in an ideal world)

Originally posted by RogueLeader
There were 62 people murdered with firearms in 1999-2000..

Hmm, 62, in a year - compared to 12000 in the US. So go-on, admit it our gun laws arn't killing us. I dare you...

Originally posted by RogueLeader
I tried to read pills' post but i think it gave me a stroke.

Me too.. I got through about 2/3rds of it though

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Natural rights override the will of the majority. What if 51% of the people in a country were white racists that were pro-slave labor? Do you think a law that denies blacks their natural right to liberty would be justified in that case?

 

[ragingsamster]

] Natural rights override the will of the majority

No, all governments are subject to the will of the poeple (at least in an ideal world)

Hmmm, I see millions (I've heard tens of millions) slaughtered people from stalinist USSR raise their hands in disagreement

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

I don't understand... are you saying they'd disagree with my quote, too? If so, how is that? In killing them, the USSR violated their natural rights to life.

 

[RogueLeader]

Umm, he didn't say they were wrong, just that it doesn't prove that our gun ban fails - which I totally agree with

If the purpose of the gun ban was to reduce crime, and crime rose, then the gun ban did fail.
That is, unless you are acknowledging that the real purpose of the gun ban was to consolidate state authority, which a gun ban does a good job of.

No, all governments are subject to the will of the poeple (at least in an ideal world)

The will of the people cannot vote away natural law.
Hell, maybe nature itself is getting pissed off at us. I bet every tornado, hurricane, flood, and other natural disasters coincides with a gun being confiscated, and nature is angered that her children are destroying their own rights. As this gun ban proves, stupidity is much more dangerous than a gun.

Hmm, 62, in a year - compared to 12000 in the US. So go-on, admit it our gun laws arn't killing us. I dare you...

Once you again you regress to your argument that I've only discredited more times than a criminal robs a Brit.
Our crime is down 10% since 1996 according to crime CDC statistics. Your gun crime is up 40%. Way to go gun ban!
But what is this? We restricted gun laws in the US in the 70's and 80's and crime skyrocketed, and now that we are liberalizing them crime is dropping, and now you are banning guns and crime is rising. And Canada is banning guns and crime is rising. And Australia is banning guns and crime is rising.
Word of the day is pragmatism. It means recognizing that when something fails repeatedly, you should probably try something else.

 

[ragingsamster]

It's kinda like if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound? If a right is not given to you, and no one stops the violation is it still a right? Natural rights are only those that your government allows you, remember we all have the gun of the government pointed at our heads - think you don't? stop paying taxes.

But I think I may have gotten your argument wrong. Sorry, never mind,

 

[RogueLeader]

Taxation is what the government calls its theft. The government has names for all its crimes that make it sound nice. Thievery=taxation, violent crime=laws, and so on.

To say that the majority will overrules natural rights makes no sense. That logic could justify the concentration camps.

 

[_Zd_Phoenix_]

Originally posted by DeadeyeDan[ToA]
Natural rights override the will of the majority. What if 51% of the people in a country were white racists that were pro-slave labor? Do you think a law that denies blacks their natural right to liberty would be justified in that case?

A completely pointless analogy. I hate pointless analogies.

I started to type a really long answer to that, but it was such a ridiculous thing to compare it to that you can have the now abreviated version.

If a referendum was held that asked the people if such a law was justified, and there was a proper majority (unlike the kind that presidents can be elected on) then the law WOULD be justified to the people who made it, even if the outside world considers it unjustified as they have different cultures.

In my opinion the black people would have a right to freedom, but in that sociaty's opinion they would not.


Natural rights are determined by the people that interpret them, which is why that analogy annoys me so much, as it cannot be truely argued by someone who does not share that view.

By Rogue Leader
Britain like all other governments on Earth is subservient to natural law and natural right. You can't say the British don't have rights just because of their location.

You say it is a natural right to own a gun. I say it isn't a natural right. I interpret what natural rights are in my way decided on the culture that I was brought up in.

Location has EVERYTHING to do with it, because it determins a persons perspective, and perspective is everything. Which is why I criticise your remarks when you have never been here.

Those statistics come FROM THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT. If you are saying they are wrong, then you are calling your government a liar. Now who is insulting Britain?

I didnt say you were a liar or the goernment statistics were. I said that A) It could be due to other things than the gun ban itself, and B) I asked if you could give me the link to your information so I could look up some things regarding it.

Neither were unreasonable, and yet you corrupt my meaning until Im calling the government liars. Not that I would rule that out, but it still gets on my nerves.

me enters condescending mode...
Gee, let us think for a moment. Who lives at city centers? If you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point.

One point to me.

Who do the police protect the least? if you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point.

<bleep> sorry, your entry into the 'I know what im talking about' club has been denied on obvious grounds.

There are way more police in the city centers than in the nice parts of the country. So the people in the city centers may need protecting more as there is more crime, but you are in NO way right to say that the poor are protected least.

The amount of protection someone has seems to me to be proportional to the amount of police around them. The poor have many more police stations and police in the city centres than the richer people do in the towns. Just because the poor in the cities are in more danger DOES NOT mean that they are less protected.

My brothers flat in london has a police car go by at least once a day.

In my home in Hertfordshire, you're very lucky to see a police car once in two months, in fact im now three and counting.....

who do the police abuse? if you guessed "the poor" give yourself a point.

I really don't know how to answer that, mainly bacause it's a load of b*******.

who is faced with the most crime and thus has the biggest need for self defense?

The biggest crime problem we have in the UK is petty theft, which is the thing that keeps our crime rate going up. But the poor do still have a right to self defence. But in my opinion that self defence should not be such an efficient killing machine as a gun.

Gun crime may well have risen the 40% (i still want a link please) but I'm not worried about it, because it is still very small, and the home secretary said that although some people are taking advantage of the ban, the amount of guns in the UK is still dropping rapidly. And seeing as the only guns left are the illegal ind, that is a good figure.

by DLL
I have a feeling that you guys think we (Americans) are attacking Britain. I don't think anyone here intended to attack your country or bruise your national pride. Let me be the first to say that I am almost entirely ignorant of life in Britain.

Im glad you admit it unlike Rogue Leader, who just shows it through some of the things he says.

I don't know what it is like there and I don't know if you have a gun problem or not. All I have done is state my opinions based on my limited knowledge. I count it a privilege to be able to converse with you that do have first hand knowledge of life in Britain.

The feeling's mutual, for you and a couple of others anyway...

Therefore it is shocking to us to know that someone else does not share our same rights. Just as shocked as you would be to know that, in another country, it was forbidden to drink ale. Even if they told that they didn't need ale, you would at least want them to have the choice to drink it or not.

Firstly I wouldn't be shocked if another country was forbidden to drink ale.

Secondly, if people (collectively) don't want something, I dont see the point in forcing it on them. The objections to the 1997 gun ban were minimal, because we as a nation do not belive that they are a good thing.

By Rouge Leader

But what is this? We restricted gun laws in the US in the 70's and 80's and crime skyrocketed, and now that we are liberalizing them crime is dropping, and now you are banning guns and crime is rising. And Canada is banning guns and crime is rising. And Australia is banning guns and crime is rising.
Word of the day is pragmatism.

To gain peace, sometimes you must endure a war. There is no way you can say what will happen in the long term. So the phrase of the day is 'I hate smug people' Not exactly a catchy phrase, but it had to have the word SMUG in it somewhere. The other words I wanted to use would have been blanked out.


As I said, number of guns in the UK are dropping. The amount left are more active than the amount in crime. As the numbers of guns continually drop (as predicted) it will reach a point where crime levels cannot keep rising with the falling numbers of guns.


I am alot safer in Britain (although we are apparently being slaughtered) than America, where you can even hire blood cleaners for houses where there have been murders. Yuk.


PS, r u releasing that as a song or somthin' PFB?

 

[_Zd_Phoenix_]

Originally posted by RogueLeader
To say that the majority will overrules natural rights makes no sense. That logic could justify the concentration camps.

It was justified to them from their perspective.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

I know you said nevermind, but my head hurts.

Would you agree(/not protest) had I said "Natural rights SHOULD override the will of the majority" ?

"Natural rights are only those that your government allows you"

Natural rights are the things you could do alone, without anyone to be denied rights by, nor anyone to deny the rights of. (So they don't hurt anybody else, and thus should not be interfered with.)

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

"If a referendum was held that asked the people if such a law was justified, and there was a proper majority (unlike the kind that presidents can be elected on) then the law WOULD be justified to the people who made it, even if the outside world considers it unjustified as they have different cultures.

In my opinion the black people would have a right to freedom, but in that sociaty's opinion they would not."



Okay, so what if you were born in this hypothetical country? (But have the same opinions you do now). You'd protest this, right? What would you use as an argument; that democracy is flawed, and an enlightened person ought to make those decisions for the people, or perhaps you'd say that NOONE, even 51% of the population, has the right to take away others' natural rights without provocation? (for the purposes of this scenario, natural = doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights... or you can call them "don't interfere rights," "DI rights," whatever you want)

Oh, and these slave-owning biggots are also extremely nationalistic, so 51% of the population agreed that nobody should be allowed to leave the country, and the borders are maticulously guarded; no saying "I'd just leave".

 

[_Zd_Phoenix_]

I hate people rolleyes for no good reason even more than I hate bad analogies.

But answering the pointless hypothetical argument...


If you got two such opposite groups in a single country, (unlikely unless it is a large country) then either two things would happen. If the government was propotionally represented, then it would technically be within its rights to reject any change the other group may want.

However if it were a fair government then compromise would have to be made before riots break out.

But as I said, this is all pointless as it is a bad analogy. Britain as a nation does not want guns around at all, and most of us DON'T see it as a natural right to carry guns as it is not our perspective of the matter as derived from our culture.

So there is no point you all telling us that our rights are being infringed when we do not see it as a right we have.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

"If you got two such opposite groups in a single country, (unlikely unless it is a large country) then either two things would happen. If the government was propotionally represented, then it would technically be within its rights to reject any change the other group may want.

However if it were a fair government then compromise would have to be made before riots break out."

How so? Since the will of the majority is more important than anything else in your ideal democracy, they are being perfectly fair.

And there are no riots yet, everyone in this country but you is extremely dumb... but everyone does realize you are brilliant, and rioters, and hell even the politicians, are all but ready to do whatever you say. They just have some questions for you:

"What makes the rights you believe in more important than the will of the majority? I mean studies show crime has dropped dramatically since the blacks were enslaved, whenever they have been free, racially motivated violence by both sides makes the crime skyrocket! The people have the right to enjoy a crime-free society without us "forcing" equality and liberty on them, don't they?"

And if you still think this is a pointless analogy, how about the same thing except it's ale prohibition? (this one's exactly like gun control, I was just hoping to avoid an "aw, I can live without alchohol" type of response before) Even though owning and drinking ale (like owning and bearing firearms) doesn't interfere with anyone else's rights, most of your country doesn't see that as a right they have... but they will change policy if you can tell them why such a right is more important than the will of the 51% of the population that are bible thumpers. What would you say?