Auto Patching mechanism

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kafros

F1 manta tryouts
Jan 21, 2005
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Under Articstronghold's bridge
[Apoc]Discord there seems to be a brick wall force field around your head :) (like the one Death Star Had) that is preventing you see how simple stuff is with auto-patching:

I see that your main concern is this: buggy patches

Apoc.Discord said:
And to keep it simple, here it is: I don't want to be autopatched because a lot of times Epic's patches are crapola, and I'd rather wait for one that's trouble- free than have some junk shoved down my throat by an autopatcher. K?

If a buggy patch comes out and the community goes screaming in the forums then EPIC can just rollback their code changes and the very NEXT day the bugs disapear.

It has happened to me so many times :). I get heated support calls, and by magic 2 hours later (after I check out from CVS, recompile and set the new version) the problem is solved. Easy... no rocket science... no "unique super idea" as you accuse me. Just plain deployment design. (Don't tell my boss...he thinks I can solve stuff in 2 hours without rollbacks :) )

Guild Wars had some of these glithes too in the betas. They would introduce something then take it back. The autopatching gives the developers tremendous power for supporting their users.
 
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Denny

Engulfed In Flames
Mar 19, 2005
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Offline playing with bots :/
kafros said:
I would like to see patches to be auto-applied as soon as you go on-line. Apart from the self-evident benefits of having all server-clients at the same game version, this will allow EPIC to do more radical fixes/redesign of its code.

What about people who only play Single Player vs. the bots, how would they get the updates? Normal patches? (sorry if this has been asked before).
 

Xipher

I didn't break it, you did
Feb 15, 2004
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kafros said:
I separated this thread from the one about bonus packs because I believe they are different subjects.


I would like to see patches to be auto-applied as soon as you go on-line. Apart from the self-evident benefits of having all server-clients at the same game version, this will allow EPIC to do more radical fixes/redesign of its code.

As it is now patches are compatible with previous versions. If for example EPIC finds a way which radically changes online play, but in order to do that they have to change the format of data being sent, then they will NOT do it because it would break network compatibility.

I faced the same problems when I deployed new versions of my software products and now the ability to bring any connecting client up to date allows me to do almost anything that makes the software better without having to think about cross-inter-backwards-compatibility between the server and the clients.

What do you think fellow forumers?

A note about filesize: 12mb once a month(or even twice) will not hurt anyone


Reminds me of Tribes 2. The Online started the patcher which did the download and started the installer. I never really noticed a problem with it.

Another person mentioned delta patches, this makes me think rsync (handy utliity, that would do exactly that)

As for code/protocol optimizations, Im sure they could do a versioning schem, and simply detect on connect which protocol to use, with the ablity for an admin to force a specific one (in case of big bandwidth or system usage enhancments/changes)
 
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kafros

F1 manta tryouts
Jan 21, 2005
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Under Articstronghold's bridge
Denny said:
What about people who only play Single Player vs. the bots, how would they get the updates? Normal patches? (sorry if this has been asked before).

They will be prompted to be auto-patched if they are connected to the internet.

This thread discusses the "compulsory" auto-patching of dedicated servers & clients that play on-line.

Read all the posts...It is a nice read...

To Discord: You cannot imagine the power of the dark side (auto-patching) :D
 

krjal

Minotaur
May 10, 2005
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Just more options. That's what I think you're saying anyway.

Uninstall/rollback would be great but how often does that happen :rolleyes:
 

livingtarget

BulletCatcher
Mar 15, 2002
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Aberdeen
kafros said:
[Apoc]Discord there seems to be a brick wall force field around your head :) (like the one Death Star Had) that is preventing you see how simple stuff is with auto-patching

Discord is right on his money you are taking this way out of context, just because you think this is how you would do it from experience. Ever heared of Q&A? That takes time, even if you are sure you can fix a minor bug in the code it will have to get tested.

Now maybe we are modifying ut2004 memory code that's different. Improvements like these might not work on a small number of systems because of the differences. Now lets take your assumption:

If a buggy patch comes out and the community goes screaming in the forums then EPIC can just rollback their code changes and the very NEXT day the bugs disapear.

Now how great we'll just roll back. First these might be improvements for X number of people, but X other people can now not play anymore. Why? Because it is forced. Therefor I predict patches like these will only be smaller changes rather then hardcoded changes.

You might think it gives the programmer more power, but all it does is fek over the customers who have a problem with those patches.

What you need is only better notification of patches and perhaps the option of downloading through the game if you'd like too.

Forced patching is BAD!

Now i'd like to take these lines out for people comparing RTS/MMORPG vs FPS games. That is not the same, RTS need forced patches because the stats change in each patch (balancing) and you CANNOT allow other people to run different stats. On UT2004 it is a lot easier to maintain compatibility because the server more or less does the decisions for you.

And heya to Discord :)
 

Discord

surveying the wreckage...
Nov 6, 2002
639
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Somewhere on Route 666
Oh hell! Reinforcements. :eek:

Hiya LT, welcome to the argument... relax and have fun. :)

Anyway, the rollback isn't bad provided:

1. The bug you've got is widespread and obvious.
2. The guys at Epic aren't asleep at the switch.

#2 there is a dicey proposition, but #1 isn't that uncommon. Plenty of times you'll see a post go up in INA troubleshooting about somebody who's got one of those oddball bugs from a patch that most people don't have. Sometimes this is a case of somebody who needs to update their drivers, or who have an alternative firewall that's not treating them right... sometimes it's not.

The result, currently, is that you have a small minority (5% or less) of players running a couple of patches behind. And as things stand, that causes 0 issues. It's best for them and it's best for the game at large.

If everybody was forced to patch whenever Epic decided it was ready, you'd have that 5% minority just outright screwed, with no recourse but to desperately try to get the issue recognized... which may or may not happen. And if it does get recognized, what do you do? Roll back the whole thing which worked for the other 95%? Seems a bit unreasonable...

As it stands, those with minority bugs can report the bug and then rollback themselves and still enjoy the game while Epic (hopefully) fixes at their leisure.


Then, you're still ignoring two other admittedly quirky but nonetheless crucial elements of the game: alternate OSes and mods.

Mac users are not an insignificant portion of the UT playing community, but the big mover here is Linux. Linux clients probably number slightly less than Mac clients (to take a guess) but the number of servers running Linux is huge.

The way things stand, Epic has farmed out the OSX/ Linux development to one guy, Ryan Gordon. This is economical for Epic and still manages to work for alternate OS users because 1. it's still OK if the patches for those OSes are a little late and 2. Mr. Gordon is kickass enough not to let things go too far behind.

Consequently, any autopatching system that required current versions from everybody would either have a lot of "latency" built into it because of crossplatform issues or else Epic would have to expand at not inconsiderable cost just in order to get all OSes patched concurrently. And there's still the issue of "it works on one but not on the other."

As for the mods, well, those things are running an almost completely altered set of code on top of whatever it is that may or may not be getting patched. Under the current system the mod teams get plenty of notice as to what's getting changed and can decide for themselves if a patch needs to be skipped (which decision may or may not be in line with the good of the rest of the playing community).



And then there's the issue of beta testing. Epic's current formula is to sign up a certain amount of beta testers and allow the patch to be tested in the general population. This works well for the beta testers inasmuch as, assuming no major foul- ups, they can continue playing the game they paid for on whatever server they choose. It works well for Epic in that the patch gets tested on a wide variety of hardware/ software configs.

If there were autopatch with no backward- compatability, beta tests would have to be segregated from the general population and would be much more limited in the number of server configs they were tested on. Which is fine for a MMORPG since the server population is fixed and controlled... not so for UT, where end users run the servers.


What you've got to remember, Kafros, is that when you do this on your job you're dealing with a much cleaner environment. All the hardware is probably extremely similar if not identical, in all likelihood you've got one OS to deal with, and users are paid to work with what you give them and are furthermore almost definitely banned from adding or deleting software/ hardware.

With UT it's all the reverse. There's no telling what's running on any of these machines (sales statistics and questionnaires can give you a rough idea, but nothing terribly accurate), there are 3 OSes currently in the mix with consoles on the way, and the end- user is paying you... not the other way around.

Further, if something goes wrong on your job it's reasonably obvious... dept. X suddenly isn't getting squat done. If something goes wrong with a game, you might have 200 out of (at peak times) 6 or 7 thousand players not show up on the servers one day. And what to make of that? It's completely normal. Beyond that you've got ranting bug reports from 15 year- olds (and those who emulate them) to go on.

In short, an in- house commercial setup (which even sort of extends to the MMORPG and some RTS games) is built for that kind of efficiency and a game like UT isn't.

UT is designed to be as different as possible from one place to the next. That's both it's greatest strenght and most damning weakness, I'll admit, and it's also a big part of the charm. It's the DIY nature of the game that helps endear people to it, and the current system of patching reflects that by handling all that hard- to- wrangle diversity in the simplest, most convenient and above all flexible way possible. Trying to impose uniformity on that from one angle and one angle alone would in all likelihood make a considerable hash of things, particularly if you went for the kinds of sweeping changes you referred to earlier.


And as to the argument that "other games are doing it," take a look at the top 15 games on csports.net's stats page. Among those top 15, you'll find two types of FPS game: the type that uses Steam, and the type that doesn't autopatch.
 

Steyr

I posted in the RO-me thread
and all I got was
a pink username!
Apr 1, 2005
333
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On the internets
Black_Seeds said:
I really dont like the idea of being spoonfed stuff, as someone on the other thread stated. And although 12mb might not b much, slowly it will eat up alot of space.
12 mb a month? HA! by the time ut2007 comes out, 56k will probably be obsolete, and anyway I download more that 10 times that per month on mods alone! I would love to see auto update, but please no system tray thingie. just have it check when you start up. NOT when you go into the lobby though, as it would be much more convinent for it to download while you play a botmatch or two for warmup.
 

kafros

F1 manta tryouts
Jan 21, 2005
331
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Under Articstronghold's bridge
to Apoc.Discord:

Dude you just buried me in paper-work....(what is you job by the way?)

I just wonder how MMO can get away with auto-patching since (as you say) there are always bugs for the 5% of the general population. And we are talking about pay per month customers. An MMO unhappy customer is 10xtimes worse than a UT pissed of player, the MMO WILL cost money...

anyway it is late...and I cannot compete with 3 pages...tommorow will be a new day
 

Discord

surveying the wreckage...
Nov 6, 2002
639
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Somewhere on Route 666
kafros said:
to Apoc.Discord:

Dude you just buried me in paper-work....(what is you job by the way?)

Yeah, srry 'bout that. I'm stuck on night shift this week (about to go in in a few minutes), so that's how I had time :lol:. To answer, currently I drive a truck and also do some light drone work with "distributed" software (as a user, not a developer). ;)

Re: MMO and 5%er. My point is that instead of having an ultra- peeved 5%er with no recourse, you simply have 5% rollbacks to earlier version with no troubles at all... under the current UT scheme. It's flexible and offers more forgiving customer service.

Other stuff: with MMO, game co. runs the servers so hardware/ OS issues are way minimized.
 
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Kirin[SC]

恐いハチミツボイ
Apr 9, 2001
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www.saphiria.net
I kind of like the idea of an Auto Updater ... it makes sure everyone's running the same boat ... but I think there should be a few options such as:
  • Enable or Disable Auto Updater. As one mentioned, they don't being "spoonfed" so if you prefer to download the patches later on, you can do so if you want. If disabled, the Auto Updater can remind the user to download it at epicgames.com/blah/blah/blah or by re-enabling the Auto Updater.
  • Option to include or not include Beta Patches. For those who feel daring, they could beta test the patch before it becomes released to the general public. Personally, I love beta testing stuff.
  • Ability to view changelog. Before I download an Official non-beta patch, I'd like to know what has added/removed/changed. Patched a bug in UnrealEd? Why not? The minigun got nerfed ... hmm ... removed CD checker? Heck yeah!
  • Ability to show which files will be modified before installing ... Some people are paranoid that their INI settings will be hosed so I think it might be a hip idea.
 

Discord

surveying the wreckage...
Nov 6, 2002
639
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Somewhere on Route 666
Bazzi said:
I've completely lost track now, cant you just summarize your 3 page post to 2 sentences?

Nope. There's a lot of stuff in there. Builds character. And besides, if I try to be concise I get accused of not making "sence." Or even better, of not having actually read the thread. :p

But if you really want the teaser trailer, here it is:

You've got three bad ideas: comparing a moddable FPS to an MMORPG, comparing UT to an in- house business setup, and mandatory patching for UT.

Why? "Too many variables" is the answer to that for all three, with a side order of "it's just not necessary" for the last one. Need more than that? Go read the post.

Suffice to say, I remain staunchly opposed to the idea. Make me an optional autopatcher and drop mandatory patching and I'm in. Don't do that, and we're looking at a detailed review of Epic's common business practices and their track record on such projects. :con:
 
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Wowbagger

Curing the infection...
May 20, 2000
667
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Yup i would love this feature :tup:
Ive experienced it in HL2, Guild Wars, EQ2 etc and it has worked out extremely well.

Lets face it, Patches with UT2004 has been medioker.
With betas and then official patches not on the official site for weeks leaving people confused.

Also Anti cheating proggies and different Patches (working with some versions) out there has turned the community into chaos sometimes.
 

Discord

surveying the wreckage...
Nov 6, 2002
639
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Somewhere on Route 666
kafros said:
I will ask EPIC to provide an auto-dispatcher (or unpatcher? hehe my english sucks) for Apoc.Discord

Thenkyew :D. Now just make sure I don't have to be patched to run a server or play online (at least for the first 4 months) and we'll be cooking with gas.

And no, your English is fine. :tup:
 

Bazzi

Wearing pink
Apr 22, 2001
629
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Germany
www.bazzinet.info
As Wowbagger said, it's not just RTS or MMORPGs, it's also HL2, a very highly mdoded game, and FPS which doesn't only release patched but massively new content.

And while there are always some whiners(tm), it worked out great so far IMO.
Sometimes a patch for CS:S introduced some little glitches which were fixed in a matter of hours/days.

The Autopatching saves let's say half of the QA testing circle, so why abandoning it at all costs?

edit:

I forgot, 99% of the mods would also benefit because so far, almost all of them required the users to have the latest UT2004 version....
 
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