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...and then there is the Shock Rifle.

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by 1337, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. Kronon

    Kronon Oldtimer

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    I liked the shock in Unreal. 500 in damage at the center, and a blast radius more than twice as long as in UT2004. If you did a combo in the middle of the elevator room on deck (where the 50a is) every part of the room was covered in the blast. Now that was a dominating weapon :)

    /Kronon
     
  2. edhe

    edhe ..dadhe..

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    I hope they make it majorly powerful again in Envy :B
     
  3. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    ...and hard to use to compensate.
     
  4. Selerox

    Selerox COR AD COR LOQVITVR

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    "You refer to the one who will bring balance to the Combo?"

    Agreed. There needs to be a balance there, or it'll be either combo spam hell, or it'll have a nightmare learning curve which will stick up a huge gap between vets and new players. I think UT99 had it about right.
     
  5. 1337

    1337 1337

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    The only thing was in Unreal you could you gather over 500 armor and health, I think but not sure. It would be fine if the shock combo was that powerful, but then they'd need to make everything else twice as powerful aswell.

    I liked how you could dodge away from things in ut2k4 too, I think it would be fun for other people too if they ditched hitscan. But I guess the way shock combo worked in UT is if you could take the shock comboer out before he executes the combo with some other instagib weapon then you'd be safe or if you got in close enough range so the shock combo wasn't effective. Plus the person couldn't switch fast enough in time if you somehow managed to breach the combo effectiveness range and with the insane powerfulness of other weapons, you could easily chew through the enemy before he could switch to a weapon that would better suit close range combat.

    Instagib weapons are fine, but not with quick weapon switch. Because, then it would be a matter of who has what weapon in their possession, not how well they make the situation favor whatever weapon they have out at that time. Slow weapon switch is better for powerful weapons. Fast weapon switching is fun for people that like putting more shots in to take someone out. Headshot, some shock up in there, then mini or link. Or lightning to stop someone's dodge or get their attention, then flak. Or shock combo and while the person is flying in the air tap him with primary a couple times so you make him flop before he drops. Or fire flak at someones feet as he dodges towards you so he flys in the air, then shard him in the air; these last two would be an example of faster firerates making less powerful weapons fun.

    So basically, if they were to make weapons more powerful they'd have to get rid of the fast weapon switch. Or else it wouldn't be fun at all, because imagine someone taking shots at you with sniper which is basically instagib, and then you dodge all of his shots and once you get in close range he pulls out a close range weapon almost instantaneously. That would suck.

    In UT you could get frags without being consistent. In ut2k4 you have to be more consistent to get a frag. You have to ride on someone awhile before they'll drop. I think it makes the game more intimate. Also I think it's harder to balance the game that has more damaging weapons and slow weapon switch.

    I can remember back when I hit someone with a couple rockets and when I didn't kill them I got pissed off. And when I hit someone with lightning three times and they didn't die I'd get frustrated. And I never switched between two different weapons. I only tried to get someone with one weapon. I had auto switch after pickup on. I had rockets at the highest priority ofcourse. I think what really makes the game fun is the type of people that play it. You are always confronted with asshats in public servers. Getting a big ego over teh internets, calling people noobs and such. I found servers that have a good vibe to them now, and I know people by their playing style. I enjoy the intimacy that less damaging weapons brings to the game. I know most people that are clanned in ut2k4, or have played it a lot and sticked with the game, even if they aren't in the top ranks in ut2k4 can rage people in other games, like CS and such, that have less of a learning curve. But they play ut2k4 because they enjoy the advanced learning curve and so many different aspects integrated into the gameplay. Especially, with gametypes where you have to move around the map only on foot and maps aren't wide open so you can use a variety of different weapons and advanced movements to get around and control the level.
     
  6. T2A`

    T2A` I'm dead.

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    Would be? WTF. That's how the shock is RIGHT NOW.

    Believe me. I call this game Shock Rifle Tournament 2004 for good reason. If you are the man with it, there is little reason to learn any other weapon aside from learning how to spin around fast and flak people up close for an emergency situation.

    How to fix it? Simple: Keep balance in mind when designing the new one.

    RoF
    I like the current RoF, but 45 damage per shot with that RoF is ri-f*cking-diculous. Move it back to 30 and now we're talking. With 30 damage, it takes 4 shots for a kill off a fresh spawn as opposed to 3. This'll also help drain ammo a bit more, because, really, when was the last time you had any trouble getting ammo with weapon throwing in the game?

    Push-back
    Reduce the transfer of velocity each primary shot gives. There needs to be some to make it useful for pushing people off ledges and stuff, but don't make it as powerful as it is right now. You get hit with it and you cannot dodge away because you're in the air, thus making the second and third shots towards your death inevitable.

    Ball Spam
    Shock cores need balancing for sure. Either make their damage really low or make the damage really high but make its effective radius and push really small. If you only have a shock rifle and someone gets close to you, you should be in trouble unless you're good with the primary at very near distances. As it stands now, you're not in trouble. At all. Just spam the cores at the person's feet to either kill them or push them away to set up for a primary shot. Too easy. Additionally, the cores should block NO OTHER WEAPON FIRE. That may be a bit too much idealistic thinking on my part, but at the very least have it only block rockets and/or flak shells. The fact that I can be aiming for someone's head with LtG and have my shot blocked by a core they just so happened to shoot as soon as I fired is ri-f*cking-diculous. You can practically hide behind a wall of shock core spam and flee behind a corner, only to lie in wait with a combo as the person comes around the corner. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

    Combos
    I don't really have any ideas for the combos, as I f*cking suck at them and can never hit them in any situation. I can miss standing combos like nobody's business. They are easier to pull off in 2004, but they're fairly easy to dodge if you know they're coming. The big problem is a lot of the time you can't tell. I couldn't count the number of times I've been trying to chase someone down with another weapon only to have them stop, shoot a core, then blow it up in my face before I can even react to the situation. They get the kill for a no-skill stand-still combo that I couldn't avoid.

    Overall, I like the weapon, but it needs to be balanced, FFS. Make it hard to use to get its full power potential, but don't make it Jesus f*cking Christ reborn once you've mastered it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2005
  7. 1337

    1337 1337

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    The beam's momentum is excessive in CTF and TDM if you are charging someone, and this is why you need to shield when charging or trying to get a footing on the ground, but aggressive players don't like the shield. It's funny that the two most effective weapons against shock, in a wide open area that is also small enough for combos, are the shield and shock rifle. But I really like the momentum transfer against vehicles. It's effective against the vehicles that it needs to be effective against. It stops fast moving vehicles from flying straight at you and it is a good way to mess with flying vehicles that usually are untouched otherwise. There needs to be more weapons effective against vehicles or a shockrifle equivalent against vehicles for player-vehicle balance.
     
  8. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    It's funny how you talk about cores blocking lightning being bad, yet, I try to intentionally hide behind my cores at distance, and poeple just shoot around them. I have to be the biggest LtG rod in this game.

    If you had used shock, you could've gotten a combo kill.

    I bloody can't express enough, my hatred for the ROF on shock prime. Dropping the damage won't fix it. I'd actually rather see the push increased a little bit, and damage stay the same, but have the ROF dramatically decreased, or at least as it was in UT. If the movement is closer to the way it was in UT, I think the UT shock will do just fine. Maybe a slight drop in damage on the beam and combo, but all in all, it was pretty ok back then. Still paled in comparison to the Sniper Rifle, and gods Minigun.
     
  9. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    I don't think the shock beam should be nerfed too much. The whole point of the shock rifle is supposed to be it's versatility, not just the raw power of shock combos. One of the many versatile features of the shock rifle has always been, and should continue to be, it's ability to attack competantly at long range without having to have a sniper rifle. While it should not be equal to the sniper/lightning at long range, is should be able to hold its own.

    I think the most apropriate aproach to the shock rifle is to keep the stun/knockback the same but reduce the damage. Emphasize stunning the opponent and pushing off ledges over killing him outright, because that's more unique.

    I think the ROF should also stay relatively fast, because the sniper rifle and lightning gun have allready been relegated to slow ROF railgun-type weapons. That way the shock rifle stays more unique and offers a faster rof for hitscan weapons. If the damage is low enough, the fast rate shouldn't be a problem.

    I also have to disagree with the idea of "ghost shock cores" that don't interact with players at all except to activate combos. The shock ball has always been open to players as a means of close range defense. It's like an akward cross between a rocket, a pulse/link bolt, and a flak blast. Also, the simple fact is not every UT player is a combo god, and players shouldn't have to be a tourney goer just to do damage with alt fire. Just reduce the ROF or the damage, or something. IMO, combos should not be the sole purpose of the shock rifle or even of the alt fire.

    As for the combos themselves, in hindsight, it's a little surprising that they've always been given so much power. The simple ability to detonate them on command rather than on impact with an obstacle would make them usefull and powerfull enough on their own. The fact that they also deal crippling damage is beside the point. I think the combo's tactical advantages should be emphasized over it's raw power. The main advantage of combos over a simple alt or primary fire should be the arbitrary, mid-air detonation point and relatively large blast radius, not the raw power of being one of the only sure methods of a one-hit kill in the game. If the target is not in a position where a large blast radius or set detonation point is required, than a regular shock core or beam should serve just as well.

    And again, I have to emphasize, combos should not be the one and only purpose of shock rifles. Their main point is that versatily; moderate long range ability, moderate close range ability, and the combo fire for special situations.

    As for ONS and vehicular combat, it sounds like the main problem is that other weapons aren't effective enough against vehicles, not that the shock is too effective. To an extent, I think vehicles bring things into a completely different ball-park, so adding weapons like the AVRIL built to deal exculsively with vehicles make sense, because they allow you to give footsoldiers a chance without messing with an balance that is allready delicate as it is in man vs man combat. However, the fact remains that the game is built around all these weapons, and leaving the AVRIL and shock as the only usefull weapons and ditching all the others is a cop-out. The weapons and vehicles need to be balanced so each and every weapon is as usefull in vehicular combat as with anti-personell combat. THe AVRIL is kind of a deus-ex-machina gimmick aproach, and for all I care, it could be tossed out in favor of making the other weapons more vehicle effective.

    The same applies to range. Granted, the average ranges of UT's weapons is pretty well maximized compaired to games like Halo, where lots of spread is added to every weapon for no good reason and almost everything is useless beyond 20 yards. But it's still pretty low for the projectile weapons. I think the primary answer is acceleration. The projectiles should speed up drastically as they travel over long distances, instead of remaining the same all the time. Rockets did this in UT99, which is why they always seemed slow when firing at nearby enemies, but seemed to FLASH past you when fired at you by someone on the other side of Face. Acceleration was removed in UT2003/4, but if it was added to all projectiles in the next UT, they could maintain their effective range better over wide varieties of distances.

    Also, for weapons like the minigun and assault rifle, using higher damage values coupled with larger spread will offer about the same level of power against small human targets, but will increase effectiveness against large vehicles targets.

    The other thing is they could just make seperate versions of the weapons for ONS with increased power, speed, and blast radii, or whatever changes are necessary to balance things against vehicles, but since the modifications would be ONS-only, they would not interfere with DM, TDM, or CTF.
     
  10. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    The raw total damage of a combo, has always been balanced by it's depeltion towards the outer radius of a combo. People rarey see the full damage happen, and if they do, they prolly deserved it (on either end).
     
  11. JohnDoe641

    JohnDoe641 Killer Fools Pro Staff Member

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    I dunno dude, moving combo in 2k4 were the easiest thing to master imho.

    The core moves so slow that it's almost impossible to miss even with three secondaries fired depending on map size.

    Double comboing in Unreal, now that was hard. :)

    IMHO they should decrease the rate of fire and keep the damage around 40 or so for the primary. The secondary should deal the same amount of damage and the secondary should go much faster. Decreasing the combo splash radius and increasing the damage given from the core out would help reward prediction nicely. :)
     
  12. Kronon

    Kronon Oldtimer

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    I had an idea before UT2003 was released: the shock ball should not travel exactly where you aim (random +- 5 degrees or so). That would make the still-standing combo harder, which would make the weapon harder to use and therefore easier to balance properly.

    /Kronon
     
  13. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    I don't think standing combos need to be nerfed. The fact is, standing still in Unreal leaves you pretty ****ing vulnerable. It doesn't really work out in the open, because you're a sitting duck, so it's pretty much only usefull for hitting people as they chase you around a corner. If you know your opponent has a shock rifle, and you just run right in when you know they have time to combo, you deserve to die, whether they were moving when they did it or not. There's no point in nerfing standing combos just to stick it to the n00bs. They allready have it bad enough when other players are flying around the room and doing triple-combos while flying all over the place and bouncing off the walls.

    One potential problem in UT2004 is the face that there are less options for corner shooting. In UT99, if you knew your opponent was going to try for a combo through a doorway, you could back up and send grenades around the corner with the RL, or use the Ripper, or ricochet flak. In UT2004, the RL has no option for corners, and while everyone starts with some grenades, they aren't very powerfull, and ammo is limited (AR ammo is only in a few places in the map, and it's not worth going out of your way to get it). There is no ripper, so your only other option is flak, which doesn't work well on narrow corners, nor when your opponent is a distance away from the wall. If there is a grenade launcher and ripper in the next UT, the standing-combo-at-the-corner trick will be more combateable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2005
  14. BooGiTyBoY

    BooGiTyBoY The ImPaCt-DaMpeNeD BooGeRaToR

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    Gee... I thought the secondary was for shock jumping. Silly me. ;)
    I just hope it has some aspect of that in Envy and I'll be happy.
    Shock-Combo-Jumpad-Boost for teh win!
     
  15. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    I highly doubt damage propulsion will change.

    That was actually a competative aspect of some other FPS's that people discredited Useries games for, is the ability to shoot people you couldn't see (around corners and such). Most people get this crazy notion that if you can't see your target, it's spam. Those same people think Hit-scan is the mad skills.

    UT did have a bit much though. I don't miss grens on the RL, and the ripper could return nerfed a bit, but that's another discussion. Too make multiple flak bounces balanced, they'd really need to have a damage x velocity multiplyer. I used to die so much from stepping on near sill flak shards, it was rediculous.

    Honestly, despite loving 2kx, and it's more balanced weapons, I really do miss many aspects of UT weapons, and I hate to say it, but hope they move much of envy towards it. Not so much the weapon lethality, but damn near every other weapon aspsects of most signature weapons, barring Snipe and Mini of course.

    Goo size, loft, and stay time. Shock everything but damage. Flack bomb to shard geometry, and blast radius.

    Goo used to be cool.
     
  16. Arsenalvendetta

    Arsenalvendetta .: Death do us Apart :.

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    This is by far the funniest experience I have had with the shock rifle. A bot was armed with a shock rifle and I an assault rifle. So I decided to take my chance with the shield gun because of its deflective attribute. As soon as I whipped it out the bot shot a shock ball which deflected on my shield and was headed towards his direction. He further shot a shock beam which again deflected on my shield gun and connected with he's shock ball, which fortunately for me was right next to him. He was fragged instantly... and in whose favour was the frag awarded to... mine. :lol:
     
  17. gades

    gades The Grudge Master!

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    Heh, you should have seen ut99, shockballs did 70 damage back then, and a high rate of fire to boot! That was overpowered. But as they are now, the shockballs are fine as they are, and are actually useful up close, due to it's splash damage and high rate of fire, you can actually keep bouncing your enemy with this.

    The combo is fine too, you can save yourself from one if you're good with the shieldgun.
     
  18. Kriegs-Maschine

    Kriegs-Maschine New Member

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    Finaly someone can understand me... I really agree at 100% about everything you just said. Shock Rifle as it is right now in UT2004 is just fuc**** lame as hell and way too powerful and overused. I won't argue a lot about it as most of what I think have been already said. I like your comments too Aenubis ;)
     
  19. SCAGBARON

    SCAGBARON New Member

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    Quote: "Additionally, the cores should block NO OTHER WEAPON FIRE. That may be a bit too much idealistic thinking on my part, but at the very least have it only block rockets and/or flak shells."

    Nothing more rewarding then blocking a potential goober and having them goo kill themselves in the process though!
     
  20. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    No, that feels dirty. In UT goo ate shock. It was much better, and made more use of bio, in that spamming normal fire goo at a comboer, could stop oncoming combos.

    Personally, with the nature of lightning, I think it should create a second kind of combo. All energy weapons IMO could interact with each other like that, and it could be cool, link, shock, and lightning alike.

    It would also make sense if they at least all negated each other.

    I guess in the end, I just hope whatever they decide with it is balanced, as well as believeable, and possibly explained.
     

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