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...and then there is the Shock Rifle.

Discussion in 'Unreal Tournament 3' started by 1337, Apr 23, 2005.

  1. 1337

    1337 1337

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    Has anyone heard as to what they, the 'Envy' game developers, have in mind for the most popular weapon in the UT series (my opinion; I'm not going to refute anyone else's). For me, one of the most rewarding experiences while learning how to play ut2k4 was becoming efficient in executing shock combos while moving at the same time. I then learned how to fire two shock balls and then shoot a beam into both of them in that exact sequence, while moving around at the same time. This takes a lot of effort and concentration to do. It is a rewarding experience everytime I do this, even when playing around offline.

    I hope they keep the abilty to use your hand-eye coordination and spacial awareness to the same advanced level you are able to in ut2k4. The thing that keeps me into ut2k4 is the learning curve; there are so many different things you can learn to whore; loads of specialty jumps on every map and there are so many different variations in the way you can do things; you go through epiphanies that improve your game and give you the ability to do things that you couldn't do before (ex: learning how to time the dodge jump correctly, which opens the door to a lot of new jumps on different maps.)

    So what experiences have you all had with the shock rifles from different games in the ut series? What aspects of the shock rifle did you love and what things would you like to see integrated into the next game?
     
  2. Ignotium

    Ignotium Que hora es?

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    lol, pushing people down to death with the shock beam, even teammates
     
  3. Olga

    Olga Miffed

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    I hate it when servers disable projectile momentum.
     
  4. 1337

    1337 1337

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    One thing I dislike about the shock rifle in ut2k4 is the shock balls. I think they deal out too much damage. I think it would better if you didn't feel the need to move out of the way of a shock ball because of the outrageous 40 damage it deals to you, but because of the shock rifle user's competence in hitting shock combos and to stop getting my shot from being absorbed into it. People don't use the shock for alt fire so why add in an extra bonus for failed shock combos? But what is done is done.

    I know the new shock rifle is going to be entirely different and innovated which is great, but I just hope they keep the same elements in that make shock rifle such a fun weapon for more advanced players. Make it so it is hard to use the weapons in a certain way, but if you can use it in that way, you get a slight advantage to other players that haven't yet learned to use the weapon in that more advanced way. Give us something to make a frag vid about.
     
  5. NeoNite

    NeoNite Worst hack fraud ever

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    Really?
    I should check how much damage an UT shockrifle "shockball" dishes out.. I think it's even worse. The UT shock is one deadly sob, but I love it.

    Funny how you can get a monsterkill with that thing. And I mean, 5 targets fragged with one shock combo.

    But well, I've no idea what the UT2K4 shockrifle is like, compared to the UT shockrifle.
     
  6. Discord

    Discord surveying the wreckage...

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    Ball moves slower and IIRC is a little larger, combo has smaller blast radius. Net result is that combos are easier to pull off, but have less capacity for mass destruction. Some people argue that the combo is a little over- used in UT2k4 as a result.

    But yeah, the ASMD (heh) is a staple of UT and couldn't be done away with any more than dodging, IMO.
     
  7. Selerox

    Selerox COR AD COR LOQVITVR

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    ASMD - fzzzzzt BOOM

    The combo is used a lot right now, on a FFA server you can't move for combos sometimes. One thing that I think is way too powerful right now is the shock primary. Total accuracy, 40 damage, fast rate of fire and huge knockback makes it one of the most powerful weapons around, and in my opinion, right now it's too powerful. Maybe drop the damage to 30?

    As for the secondary fire, I hope to remove the feature that makes it seem to block pretty much any shot that passes through it, meaning people can spam with it to make a moving "wall" sometimes.
     
  8. Mr.Magnetichead

    Mr.Magnetichead Banned

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    I do and have always hated the ASMD.
     
  9. Ignotium

    Ignotium Que hora es?

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    I've always loved the team combos
     
  10. Dark Pulse

    Dark Pulse Dolla, Dolla. Holla, Holla.

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    Primary was much slower in 99. But then the ball travelled faster...
     
  11. Discord

    Discord surveying the wreckage...

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    I'd agree. Given that it's also extremely effective against vehicles, I'd be willing to say it's the most powerful weapon in UT2k4. The only weapon it really seems to have any trouble going up against is rockets... you have to jump around too much when being attacked by rockets to get a proper bead on somebody, let alone pull a combo.
     
  12. Selerox

    Selerox COR AD COR LOQVITVR

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    Rocket + Shock Ball = Detonation in my face

    The trouble with that is that rockets are detonated by shock secondary. If a shock player uses it right, it can block rockets. I know this from experience :hmm:
     
  13. Death Cube K

    Death Cube K You'll be seeing him alot.

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    Not just rockets either, I've already lost count how many times a shock ball hit my fully charged goo and set it off, killing me instantly in the process.
     
  14. 1337

    1337 1337

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    I'd actually prefer the secondary shock to not interact with the environment, but instead only be a ghost ball that drifts though things and people(not walls) till someone detonates it with primary shock. Or atleast make it do less than 40 damage. It might as well not even do any damage because of all the other beneficial properties it has. Blocking incoming fire, 40 damage, and a potential shock combo is too much.

    Shock is very effective against floaty and light vehicles. The most effective weapons are prim flak and prim shock, making other weapons pointless in ONS. One thing they'll have to change in the next UT is the balance between foot soldiers and vehicles. The only use for most floaty vehicles is the extra armor and the fast speed and vehicles being easy to hit with hitscan doesn't anger me because if I couldn't defend myself against a flimsy vehicle then what would be the purpose of not operating a vehicle? What is even more silly is when people run straight at you and don't except to get hit with 100% accuracy

    The only reason I don't hit vehicles 100% percent with a hitscan weapon is because of the crappy choppy fps I get during ONS maps. And shock primary devastates floaty vehicles like raptor, manta, cicada, and the scorpion, no other weapon is as effective as shock primary except flak primary which can only be used in close range. I wouldn't touch the AVRIL if I didn't get such crappy fps. But the hardest part in making a game is trying to keep the weapons balanced in every skill level. In lower levels, players can't hit vehicles with shock consistently and they don't have good aim. It would pretty silly to expect the weapons to be balanced in a wide open level when hitscan will own regardless of how well they balanced the weapons.

    One thing I'd hate to see is the game makers changing shock rifle to suit vehicle combat more than what ut series is well known for, which would be CTF and TDM. Maybe they should make maps that appeal to different people. Like make a map for novices and make a map for people that have good aim and prediction skills. Don't include shock rifle in a wide open map if people like getting road rage kills and such. But most people that complain about shock hitscan are the ones that don't understand the "don't run straight at your opponent" aspect of ut2k4. Use the map to your advantage. Swoop down with rockets. Time it so right when your opponent walks around a corner he gets a bunch of link prim in his face. It isn't about running in a straight line to your opponent, whenever you see him.

    Hitscan skill should still be rewarded, but instead of trying to nerf hitscan weapons to make more balanced play in large levels maybe they should get rid of the hitscan weapon pickups in large levels. Vehicles all have their uses. Scorpion manta and raptor are used for getting around to an advantageous location quickly. Tanks are made to be badass and effective in holding a locations if supported by foot soldiers that hitscan raptors and fast moving vehicles, but they are slow getting around. The goliath with it's hitscan splash fire can hold a pathway very effectively but it's slow turret makes it less effective against fast vehicles that have already breached the field of fire that tank dominates, into a closer proximity, while the paladin uses it's shield to hold an area against fire from long distances while also keeping vehicles and players from getting in close proximity by the centralized shock wave feature you can use by having shield up and firing into the shield. The Cicada brings a real cool concept in with the indirect fire and fast z axis movement. Leviathan is just a badass vehicle. If mantas and raptors could get to a location fast and also have the ability to hold it's own against skilled foot soldiers it would be imbalanced. Mantas and fast vehicles should not have more armor or be more damaging, they suit their purpose. And hitscan should always be effective in a large map made for hitscan. If you want a map where vehicles easily mash through foot soldiers then get rid of hitscan in that map.
     
  15. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    Shock is almost balanced in this game.

    I think some minor weapon tweaks will be made for vehicle interaction, but that is why there are "seperate weapons" for those gametypes. For the most part, they seem to balance the weapons for DM, and then balance the other gametypes accordingly.

    I personally thing shock is way nerfed by ammo. A combo costs you 5 ammo to do, that is only 4 combos on weapon pickup.

    40 damage is a fair price to pay, especially considering:
    1. Is prevents up to 300 damage.
    2. If the target is trying to "combo" you, he usually only has one core out to do it.
    3. That core moves slow, and at most ranges, is easy to avoid.
    4. If target does have the capacity to shoot multiple cores, and then combo the oppropriate one, or corral you with some to combo you with one, he has skill, and deserves the kill.
    5. You do spawn with a method of "reflecting" the core.
    6. You can counter the core.
    7. You as well can combo the core.

    The one thing I will agree is unbalanced about the SR is it's primary ROF. Same damage and push, it should be back at what it was in UT. Everything else about it has a balance IMO.

    Things I'd like too see change about it... I liked a lot of the aspects of the combo in UT better. I liked the core speed. Made it insanely difficult to do moving combos. It was cool because it made it more gratifying when you did them. It also made it easier to counter a combo by moving the target (via beam, or rocket, etc). It also made the minimum combo distance tighter. There were no "get away from me" combos. You already had to be away from the target to worry about it. Core's, weren't as easy to use for regular damage. At current, you can almost shoot the at peoples feet like rockets, and even if splash doesn't do substantial damage, it moves you like crazy, making juggling, or weapon combos easy with it. The radius is crazy.

    As cool, and difficult as double combos are, it's sacrifice is a small price to pay to reduce beam spam. There already was so much depth to shock anyways, I don't think it needs much more stuff like that.

    Shock has had, does have and always will have a wicked learning curve, and I think that's part of why it's so controversial. The difference between UT and UT200X is, before the difficulty was in learning to use it. Now, the difficulty lies in learning to counter it. Many aspects of shock are way easier to use, so the focus has to be on avoidance. In either way, it's the difference of a skill teir.
     
  16. 1337

    1337 1337

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    I dislike stand still combos. I wouldn't want to have stand still combos anymore effective than they are right now.
    I think a less damaging shock primary fire would be better in my opinion, becuase without it's rof it would be too similar to sniper. And I think the thing pissing most people off is the shock balls absorbing everything.

    I don't think doing combos while standing still should be as rewarding as it is right now. Non-absorbing shock balls would have made it so standing shock comboers would be a lot easier to defend against. One logical reason why the shock prim does 45 damage with the rof it has is because it is much harder to hit 3 shots in a row on someone with that rof. The lg yields higher percentages because you don't have to continuously keep your mouse on the person, but I think the knock back of primary on shock might make it more easier to hit someone with multiple shots in quick succession, plus having a hitscan weapon capable of dishing out more damage per second than the lightning gun (which is only hitscan), shock combo, and fire splash damage projectile that absorb everything all in on weapon is way to overpowered. I think the shock prim would be ok with it's rof if it did 35 damage.
     
  17. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    I dont' think anything hit-scan should have that ROF. I also think it's similarity to the sniper rifle shouldn't be an issue, because it should as well have an increased ROF. Also, it not having a zoom limits it a bit, and really the point of shock in no way shape or form should be about the beam. With a higher ROF, and same damage, you wouldn't want to pull it for the beam, because it's not effective. That would put more focus on the gun for it's versitility, and not because of any one aspect it has that is too proficient.

    There in lies the beauty of the UT Shock Rifle. The beam wasn't so fast, or damaging that it rivaled the Sniper Rifle (unlike now where people are 50/50 on what they prefer for their hit-scan whoring). The cores weren't fast enough, nor did they fire at a high enough ROF to rival Pulse, nor did they do enough damage, or have a big enough spalsh radius to rival the Rocket Launcher. Each was it's own, and only gained it's excessive lethality to all being at your disposal at one time (especially considering the slower switch times). If you pulled the Shock Rifle for any one reason before, it was for the combo. Now, it depends too much on the situation, and it's effective in too many situatons.

    I do prefer the old collision system for cores though (UT). Goo killed cores. Made goo way cooler. Grens should kill cores as well, though realistic story justification of that would be difficult when cores kill Rockets, and Flak, which I don't mind. As well, anything that blocks hit-scan is justified.
     
  18. 1337

    1337 1337

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    I'd have that gun out more than any other gun if I cared about the score and didn't find hitscan boring. 45 damage and increased rate of fire with momentum, that would be wickedly effective. You practically could push people backwards with that thing.
    Yes I agree. I think they should reduce the effectiveness of the shockrifle's hitscan. The only problem is there needing to be another effective hitscan weapon that adds variety to the game, because having one effective hitscan weapon (sniper if shock is nerfed) when hitscan rules the game would make the game boring. But there is only so much they can do to the balance the game. Hitscan will always rule in the more skilled matches, unless the hitscan is nerfed to the point where it is never effective in medium skilled matches.

    It seems UT's shock combo was a stand still weapon. Being able to hit mutiple combos in quick succession or firing a combo then dodgin off a wall and hitting the combo is a lot cooler than standing combos. It's like air rox compared to shooting at someone's feet with rockets.

    I hope the next shock rifle, regardless of rof or damage, can be used in many different artful ways. I enjoy dodging and moving around while hitting shock combos. It takes practice and a good connection but it adds a lot of depth to the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2005
  19. -AEnubis-

    -AEnubis- fps greater than star

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    I'll full well admit that my view on moving combos is baised. I just liked it better before, because if you could hit moving combos, you were like 1 in 100, where as now it's more like 1 in 15. If you have UT, I can show you a demo. The net code being updated will prolly make moving combos way easier, even if they full out bring UT shock back. The biggest problem with them before was how ping effected them. Now, that aspect is not so bad.

    The only two known hitscan weapons to even be in the next game are Shock and Shaft.
     
  20. edhe

    edhe ..dadhe..

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    I liked becoming a total shock h0 in UT :)
     

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