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An Announcement from the INFMOD Team....

Discussion in 'General Infiltration Discussion' started by Bushwack, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    Could you also make a fix or nerf for the M4a1 too? Just recently I've come to the conclusion that something about it is way out of whack.
     
  2. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    We don't give a damn about balance when it gets in the way of realism.
     
  3. Taque

    Taque Custom User Title

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    People who can handle the recoil of the M4 are likely pretty good shots. *fears another M4 discussion*
     
  4. {GD}Ghost

    {GD}Ghost Counter Terrorist Operative

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    There is nothing wrong with the M4 what-so-ever. I do as well with that as with the M16A2 in most cases. I happen to use the aimpoint for it, which helps your eye focus on the target easier.....which is the purpose of the attachment anyway, so.....I have to agree with Crowze on that one. There are some unrealistic flaws with many of the weapons, but all that can be done is to get it as close to realism as possible. It won't ever be perfect in a game, but that shouldn't stop anyone from trying.
     
  5. Vega-don

    Vega-don arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée

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    i think the m4 is good enough, but it annoys me that 90% of the users use it with a suppressor! they dont even know why they have a suppressor on it!
    i also think that the m4 looks cooler with the carrying handle

    the only guns that are unbalanced in my opinion (not talking about aiming pbs)are the shootguns and the minimi .
     
  6. asmodeus

    asmodeus DB addict

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    the MAG-7 is unreliable... I've been usingit a lot these days, with moderate sucess... it's a greta sidearm though (and maybe it was meant as just that)
     
  7. Crowze

    Crowze Bird Brain

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    Both of which I'm addressing with this nifty mutator called Inf Weapon Enhancement.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2004
  8. {GD}Ghost

    {GD}Ghost Counter Terrorist Operative

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    I prefer the carry handle too.

    Doesn't the suppressor suppress the muzzle flash? I thought it did. That's why I use it. I know it doesn't do much to suppress the sound.

    The original shotgun is a little too effective at long range, and the Mag7 is on the opposite extreme of that. It sux even at close range. I think the downsides to the minimi "balance" out its use. Although I do not like these "balancing" features, it works. I think the "balancing features for RO-UT2k4 are great, although it is based around a class based system, it works well.

    The only problem with true realism with weapon behavior is that realism isn't carried over to people's choice of loadouts, in-game behavior....so on and so forth. Think about it, there are reasons that you don't see the behaviors on real battlefields that you see on game servers. Other than the obvious reason being that this is a game and no one fears death, every member of any combat squad has a role they play in that squad. A squad is not effective if every member has a minimi or a sniper rifle or an M203, a rocket launcher, a redeemer.....etc...etc. No one really wants to play a specific roll, in most cases. Everyone wants to be "the ultimate universal soldier" rather than play a specific part in a team. This will probably not change even for INF, but there are those of us who wish for this level of realism and teamwork. If a class based system is one way to accomplish this better than no class based system, I'm all for it. I'd prefer a class based system that is more loose than strict. Meaning that I'd like there to be a choice of several weapons/equiptment available for say....a demolition loadout, not just a choice of only one SMG, one side arm. A class based system is not bad, if the classes are given a variety in choice of armamanets and equiptment that that those same classes are given in real life. The only difference is that in real life, they are not called classes. They are actual jobs that serve a specific role to make a squad, platoon, division....as effective as it needs to be.

    Please check out RO's system. It is done very well.


    But now that I've strayed off topic....I will now return you to your regularly scheduled topic of the Mod Team's weapons. My apologies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2004
  9. Derelan

    Derelan Tracer Bullet

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    I use a suppressor on the M4 because it takes the same amount of shots to kill with less recoil, lower decibels, and no muzzle flash.
     
  10. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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    The most annoying thing is: You never gonna get the sniper rifle unless you have a very fast Harddrive or are all alone on the server... even the bots usually get priority...
     
  11. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    Well, the way I see it is that there's no way you can control the M4a1 like that. It's smaller, seems to have a Higher ROF but it's still firing the same round as something like the M16a4. It should have a bunch more recoil than it has right now.

    Plus there are the problems the M4a1 has with sending the 5.56 fast enough. I can't remember the distance, but after a short while the 5.56 doesn't shatter, hence becoming a .22. It's a lot more damaging then it should be. It should be at most (and this is a generous number) 3/4 of the damage of the A4 or A2.
     
  12. {GD}Ghost

    {GD}Ghost Counter Terrorist Operative

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    May I ask where you're getting your info and how your observations differ from any other weapon in the game?

    IMO, this is how it should be. Also, the allowed number of weapons scales according to how many players are on the server....at least to some extent. Most of the people who MUST have the sniper rifle are the very ones who shouldn't have it. How does this differ from reality? Not any G.I. Joe gets to use a sniper rifle. It satisfactorily controls the amount of SRs on a server at one time and from experience, it does not stop the server from filling up quite rapidly once a couple of people are on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2004
  13. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    I'm going to try to wing some number crunching.

    M16a2 weighs 4.5 KG with a full mag. M4a1 weighs 3 KG with a full mag.

    F=MA. Which we then make F/M=A . So basically Force of the bullet divided by the Mass of the gun will roughly give us something to determine recoil by assuming that the guns are of the same basic shape. You can't easily compare the recoil between the M14 and the M16 because of different stock designs.

    Since I don't have the force the bullet gives off handy, I'll just use the stock number of how much energy a 5.56 has to compare the two.

    1798/4.5 = 399.555 = Recoil of A2. Roughly 400.
    1798/3.0 = 599.333 = Recoil of M4a1 Roughly 600.

    So basically the M4a1 should have 1.5x the recoil of an A2.


    Other things. The 5.56 does most of it's damage by shattering upon impact of flesh. The bullet needs to be moving at certain velocity for this to happen. I think it's roughly 2600 Fps, possibly 2700 FPS. Coming out of an M16 the bullet moves a little more than 3000fps. Basically, if the bullet drops below 2700 FPS it becomes no more than a pointy .22 .

    The Length of the M4a1 barrel is 370mm (sorry for cross units). The Length of the M16a2 barrel is 508mm. That means the M4a1 has 130mm less barrel length for the bullet to be accelerated. This doesn't mean that the Bullet is moving 1/4 slower than the A2's bullet. At the end the acceleration trails off compared to the beginning. However, this is enough to drop the bullet speed of the M4a1 below 2700FPS at distances of roughly 100 meters. So past 100 meters, the M4a1 is a glorified .22 .
     
  14. Taque

    Taque Custom User Title

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    Sorry for entering a topic that I know very little about, but even attempting to use a physics formula every kid learns in grade 9 or 10 to start justifying increased recoil for a weapon is simply crazy. Even as it stands, just from watching people play, not many will use full auto on the m4a1 up to a count of 10 or 15 bullets - the recoil is too much for them. It takes all of my mouse control to keep 5-10 bullets of a full magazine decently on target at a range of 30 meters, let alone 100.

    Anyway, I don't really remember being all that threatened by an M4 at ~100 or more meters. In fact, I usually jump on the opportunity to simply outgun someone with an M4 at around that range - accuracy and recoil often make for an ineffective weapon for most shooters.

    As for the sniper rifles, I said it once and I'll say it again, 5 mediocre snipers will fall to 1 good one, so I don't see the problem. Furthermore, the same 5 snipers will fall to one good "assaulter." The class system? I don't see the logic in having, for example, two soldiers who are both very effective at using the M16/M203 combo separate their roles so that one has only bullets and only one gets the benefits of a 40mm. These last few nights, I've played some damned fine games teamwork-wise with other members who had basically the exact same loadout as me. Please keep in mind this is within the context of the game. While I agree with Crowze that weapons must be kept realistic, I do not agree with other sentiments that realism has to extend even into the role playing. There are simply too many variables to take into account in this simplistic game environment.

    Edit: Back on topic, I can't wait for WeaponPack 29, which will be released instead of all the interim ones. :p Woohoo for new weapon orgies in 2012!
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2004
  15. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    Ok, the M4 does have a higher recoil, because it has a higher rate of fire, the M16A2 is burst, which as we all SHOULD know, reduces the amount of ammunition wasted and accuracy.

    the only thing the shorter barrel on the M4 {in game} means is less accuracy at the same range as a longer barreled weapon.

    as far as your comments about the 5.56 being "a glorified .22" do some research bubba, it IS a .22, {the SAE measurement is .223 BTW} with an assload of extra propellant behind it to increase its range and accuracy, the wound ballistics of such a round at ranges is a hotly disputed topic and can better be left for another thread and another time.

    Your information is seriously flawed concerning its breakup when the round impacts flesh, at what range are you extrapolating this from? an extreme range?

    As for any other debates regarding the function of this weapon, your more than welcome to bring your happy asses to NE Ohio and shoot one of the 3 M4's i own and see for yourself, i speak from experience the INF soldier handles the recoil on these weapons like a limp wristed prom girl, if you want to portray realistic recoil of a weapon in the hands of whats supposed to be a trained soldier, well, in that case, all the guns in Infiltration are overpowered....

    BW out!

    Try researching things a bit and back it up with some links and factual information on how you came about your view on the matter as well.

    http://classes.kumc.edu/cahe/respcared/ptcs/richey.pps

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9251234&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.mcw.edu/display/displayF...er/llemahie/PDF/gunshot_wounds_pathfinder.pdf

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/Firearms9803.htm

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/undeniable-evidence.htm

    http://www.shootersbookshelf.com/index.shtml/3

    http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/

    http://www.fortliberty.org/military-library/ballistics-ammunition.shtml

    http://www.povn.com/~4n6/4n6.htm

    http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

    http://www.wlhoward.com/id618.htm

    and those are only managed from about 5 minutes of cutting and pasting...;\
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2004
  16. Lasersailor184

    Lasersailor184 The_Punisher

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    I did not say anything about range for wound ballistics because the range is irrevelant.

    The velocity is the important part. The reason the 5.56 is used is because it shatters upon impact and tears up a much bigger hole then just .22. If the bullet is not moving fast enough, it won't shatter. Thus, it is just a .22.
     
  17. asmodeus

    asmodeus DB addict

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    well, strictly speaking it IS a .22:p

    anyways, ballistics are very complex... I tried to do a quick model of body armor penetration and I gave up, it would take up too long of a time to come with anything remotely realistic (I have a B.Sc. in physics)

    I might do it sometime...
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2004
  18. {GD}Ghost

    {GD}Ghost Counter Terrorist Operative

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    BW, I'm half tempted to take you up on your offer to fire your M4s. What's that, about a 4 or 5 hour drive from where I am?
     
  19. Nukeproof

    Nukeproof n1

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  20. Bushwack

    Bushwack Avenged Sevenfold...

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    BTW your physics BS is exactly that, a bunch of BS, it doesnt take into account the actual functioning of the weapon, the strength and training of the operator, and any number of other factors. In short, your equation isnt necessarily WRONG per say, it just doesnt have all the pertinent information...

    There is a buffer system that REDUCES recoil, on all fully automatic as well as semi automatic rifles/hanguns etc, via either a gas piston, a system of springs, or a combination of both, felt recoil is reduced {this is done to reduce fatigue on the operator, and aid in accuracy and a whole list of other things}
    So i dont care if its a 5 inch, or a 50 inch barrel, by nature, it is a modern rifle, and has the above mechanisms to reduce the recoil felt and aid in keeping your rounds on target. I can fire my M4, with one hand, arm outstretched, on full auto {not accurately NO,[accuracy being the most 'relative' term concerning the subject] but able to do so quite easily}, i can also do this with one of the AK47's i own, as well as the Uzi, the Thompson M1a1 and several other weapons.
    The way the M4 is implemented ingame, is as good as, if not better, than any of the other Infiltration armory weapons, there are no flaws, it reuses the ballistics of another previous INF rifle of similar size,caliber, and weight to power ratio, its ROF is only slightly higher, and the damage it does is fine, aside from cosmetic changes to the rifle{which are forthcoming via Duke and the team} there isnt going to be any 'fix' for something that isnt broken. We've already stated this at least 10 times already, and i grow tired of the arguement.
    End of story.

    @ Ghosty

    Where is it you are located? {remember, its winter, and im old }
    And ill keep the GD guys away from my live fire excercises, with your collective pencheant for shooting those on your own team :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2004

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