A feature.

[yurch]

I'm opening this for public discussion, both because not much is happening in here and I could use some info from the playerbase. This regards the HL2 project.

I have an experimental feature in its infancy, and I'm wondering if it's too clunky and technical to be used. I don't want this to be a gimmick feature, it should rather be something truely useful.

This post will be quite technical in nature, so I ask those shy of such things to just consider if the overall usage sounds too awkward.

What this feature simulates is resting a weapon on an object. Think bipods.

We already have an existing function known as the 'leankey', a single key that is used in conjunction with the mouse to define posture. Holding this key, and moving the mouse, will allow the player to define a posture between both left and right leaning, and standing and crouching. Holding this key prevents the player from turning with the mouse, for obvious reasons.

In conjunction with this free-posture, if the player then 'leans' his weapon down on an object or map geometry, the camera(and thusly, the weapon) will now lock and pivot around the point related to this contact. This means the posture, which is still controlled by the mouse, now also controls the aim by virtue of this locked pivot. Lean left, the aim shifts right. Crouch down, and the aim shifts higher. Note that your aiming is now limited by how far you can lean in a direction.

Conceptually, this is extremely useful for defensive fighting. It allows the player to take cover behind roughly waist-high objects with an absolute minimum of exposed area presented to his target.

There are, however, a slew of technical problems that come with this 'feature'.

Having aiming tied to lean makes hitting a target become entirely dependant on the quality of the lean system. The current lean animations have a lower head position at the left and right extremes; this gives aiming with the mouse a u-curve.

The attachment point must actually be a fair distance away from the player, having it very close compounds animation error + lag to unacceptable levels, despite the smoothing algorithms and prediction I have applied. I estimate this distance at about arm's length, which is fine for large weapons, but not for say very short shouldered subguns.

This is a first person deal, only. Third person won't look any different, hopefully I can keep the rifle from sinking too far below his head. (and into the supporting object)

The limited traversal I can see being frustrating to players, it's possible they will have to un-lock from the bipodded position to hit targets at the extreme edges of thier coverage, but this is a problem with some reality basis, and a fair disadvantage to the superior accuracy and stability of the bipod position. I can make the lean animations more 'extreme', but the limit will always be somewhere.

On what is legal to set the bipod on I have not yet determined. Right now it's a single point on 'anything solid', which could be anything from a metal desk to a piece of wood, and quite posssibly teammates. This is harder than it sounds, as code is pretty blind to the world around the player. (everything must be clumsily 'felt')

What to do when the barrel line is broken is up for grabs. (If the leaning takes you into a position the bipod + weapon could not possibly follow you, happens frequently if you crouch 'under' a table) I could have the weapon disengage the pivot lock, or I could just leave it 'attached' but disable firing or display a 'lowered' animation. Keep in mind that the weapon model you see in game does not exist for others, so there aren't options like 'using physics' unlike what some may imagine.


Suggestions or comments on the viability of this feature are welcome. I'm not afraid to dump it if it's looking too clumsy to live. I know it's hard to make a judgement without seeing it, but it's the same thing I have to do - it's obviously not complete yet.

 

[-Freshmeat]

It sounds pretty much what people around here has been wanting on several occasions. I am to much a noob to have say in those matters, but I think it would be very much worth giving a try. The REAL question is: What will you not have time for making if you attack this problem?

-Freshmeat (You want to do it. See it as a revenge on the current M2HB)

 

[geogob]

ah, I see where this is going. very interesting.

Now I understand that you are considering and automatic locking when leaning/resting the weapon on a surface. I see a problem where this "feature" could engage when not actually wanted. Having a manual "rest weapon/use bipod" command could be a good solution to this. Alternatively, use a mixture of both manual and automatic (or user specified).

I can also see how using a support can become frustrating due to movement restriction. That seems to me like a real problem (in the sens that you'll have to live with it in real life too). I immediately think of a situation like in this picture, where if someone gets into the far side of his coverage area, he might have to reposition to have a comfortable position.

problem is that a "deployed" position doesn't always mean more stability. Some times it could become really awkward and even very uncomfortable... something like your example when you are crouched bellow a table or something like that. How do detect such postures is not easy. INF 2.9 weapon collision system took a serious step in that direction.

I think that problem is worth studying and some experimentation would be welcomed. First try could be somewhat clumsy, yes, but as you say, it's young and it will evolve in something more natural.

If I compare such a system with existing bipods system in other game (I can quickly think about Red Orchestra), I doupt it would be any more clumsy

 

[Keganator]

Instead of a button to release, perhaps a too-vigorous movemnet would 'break' the locked position free. So, for a certain amount of movement below a velocity/acceleration threshhold, the lock stays in place. But, if, say, the player quickly turns and goes prone, the gun would not stay in position. I think this would be the most natural way to do it.

 

[yurch]

Now I understand that you are considering and automatic locking when leaning/resting the weapon on a surface.

It only locks when the previously mentioned 'leankey' is held, unlocks on release. (edit: or straying outside a distance tolerance, the player is always allowed to move) right now, intensional locking can be a bit difficult as the lock point must hit the surface before any other part of the weapon does. (Depth perception is pretty hard to achieve with viewmodels) Thin or slanted surfaces make achieving lock difficult, which makes a bit of sense anyway, although for different reasons.

problem is that a "deployed" position doesn't always mean more stability. Some times it could become really awkward and even very uncomfortable... something like your example when you are crouched bellow a table or something like that. How do detect such postures is not easy. INF 2.9 weapon collision system took a serious step in that direction.

Indeed, although I think the system transfers a bit of those akwardness decisions to the player. At a high angle, the player will have to deal with the barrel behind the bipod hitting against the supporting object, depending on whatever aggravating effect I end up giving that. At low angles, the player currently can't get his body high enough to aim very naturally, which causes his aim to seemingly dip at undesireable times.

So far, I find the system better overall for preparing for sustained attack on a small field of coverage. This makes best sense for ranged snipers and support gunners. It's not a MG42 on a tripod, obviously.

If I compare such a system with existing bipods system in other game (I can quickly think about Red Orchestra), I doupt it would be any more clumsy

Most other games, though I don't know what RO uses specifically, just use a simple locking of position/rotation for such deployments. The above feature (which I will just call 'pivotlock' from now on) is a bit more alive - you can step to the left or right to shift your traversal limits, provided you don't move outside the lock tolerance. You will feel the player stand up and move, which results in quite a bit of violent swinging of the point of aim before the player settles back down.

 

[geogob]

Sometimes, you might want to *unlock* your position slowly or quickly "throw" your weapon on a resting surface. With a mixture of automatic behavior and manual control you could do this.

 

[Cap'n Beeb]

Anything I could think of that could potentially be a problem has already been covered, so I'll say: "This sounds fucking awesome!" instead

 

[cracwhore]

So, right now, you're saying that if you lean, and there is an object within range, the weapon will 'lock' onto that object automatically - therefore - engaging this 'support' mode?

Maybe I'm just tired, but that's what it sounds like.

In that case, I would say no.

Weapon Collision is a great idea - however - it seems like if you automate this too much - it would essentially be more frustrating.

I do believe a lot of things should be automated and simplified. For example, when you walk into a door, the player model should automatically lower his firearm to avoid getting stuck. Things like that.

From what it sounds like - you're shooting towards the simplicity of using one key to control all of the leaning - which I like (analog control is needed for things like that). However, I believe that the support stance should be activated by it's own button.

Otherwise, it sounds like something the game could use, and I'm interested to see what happens with it.

Sorry if I completely misread your post. I'd be glad to find out more and offer feedback over TS if you'd like.

 

[yurch]

So, right now, you're saying that if you lean, and there is an object within range, the weapon will 'lock' onto that object automatically - therefore - engaging this 'support' mode?

No, the pivotlock currrently only occurs if/when the bipod point contacts an object (before the rest of the weapon) while holding the key. Even with it engaged, leaning still operates in entirely the same manner. So, even in the occurance of pivotlock, you can set lean to the desired position and release the key - your view will just be oriented in a slightly different direction.

I also allow the player to walk without resetting the desired lean. Lean doesn't go quite as far (inf soldiers appear to me like they defy physics), but now you can set your desired lean first and step out. No more of that lean->step/reset->lean.

Currently, I have to approach an object, angle the barrel down somewhat, and 'sit' the rifle down onto the surface to even get it to engage. The bipod range (read: length below the weapon) is currently quite small, though. I could easily make yet another key for "leaning without lock" if that's what general consensus wants.

 

[ravens_hawk]

Currently it sound likes a very good idea (another thing to set INF apart.)
As it would stand now you use one key to lean and when "leaned" into an object it rests the weapon on the object. I could see a couple of situations where this might happen when the player doesn't want it to (maybe they want to lean around the object or what have you.) This would suggest the use of another key for placing the weapon on an object.
However to avoid the use of many key binds I would suggest something:
As in RvS (the only game I know that has fluid lean) you would have one key for fluid lean. Hold it down and move the mouse and you lean. Double tap and it resets, etc.
to avoid the above problem I would suggest using it in conjunction with another key to rest the weapon on an object. Most obvious for me would be the steady aim (hold breath whatever) key. This is a key that wouldn't be used while adjusting leaning anyways, and seems natural to me.
So to sum up:
Hold “fluid” key = fluid lean, Double tap “fluid” key = Reset lean, Hold “fluid” key and “steady aim” key = Rest Weapon.

The only other thing I would suggest is to be able to rest weapons against wall corners and such (see pic.) But I have a feeling that might be very difficult to code.

 

[Derelan]

I think the original idea that leaning onto a surface rests your weapon on it is great, but as long as there are no movement boundaries. Maybe something like automatically unlocking/unresting when you pivot too far. I know that was a real pain when you are prone, and if an enemy wants to survive they just have to go into your rotation's blind spot.

 

[OICW]

Regarding supporting your weapon, (forgetting bipods for the time being), I don't like the idea of being locked into a position.

This may be technically unfeasible and I may have missed some gameplay issues. I believe that an extension of the weapon collision should be included. Your weapon would have a thin "trace" projecting underneath it checking the distance between itself and whatever it reaches. If the distance reaches a pre-set limit (like say 2cm or less). When it does, your weapon becomes more steadier and you can still mvoe yourself and your weapon around as long, with the accuracy bonus, as long as the trace is still on the object. Basically, you can swivel your weapon around more accurately, but you are still able to move away freely or take cover should you need to.

Potential problems with this idea;

* I think it would involve a lot of CPU usage. This could be tweaked by only having the trace activate near objects the mapper has designated as suitable (but this presents problems for the mapper and the player if they feel they should be able to support their weapon on an object but the mapper doesn't).

* The trace may have difficulties with thin walls or railings. I this case, maybe a shaped trace (like a wedge) and with a set limit i.e. your weapon will be supported if a certain percentage or area of the shaped trace hits the cover.

I'll try and play around with a diagram to make it clearer . I know it doesn't seem like much of an idea, but I think that certain movements should be natural and fluid, not clunky.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Very interesting. If you can make that the player model could be crouched just at the desired height to see the target and still use the maximum cover (ie. the enemy only will see your weapon and half of your head), it should be very useful. For that, the player should have to input how much stand up / down, when he has the weapon "deployed".

 

[Buddz]

A small bit that I find a bit complicated is:
- if you move your mouse to the left the gun is moving to the right
That sounds very confusing and more like you are getting a penalty for resting your weapon.

 

[geogob]

well, it's somewhat logical. Once you lean on a surface and rest the gun, you now use the mouse to move the body around the support point. Before saying it's good or not, i'd have to try it. It's really a unique concept and without testing it, it's really hard to say if it's going to be intuitive or not. The idea make sense this way though.

 

[Psychomorph]

Playing BF2, you have stationary MG's and if you use them, you turn the gun to the right side by moving the mouse to the right, thats how it should be, cuz it works 100% (intuitive perfect), everything else would complicate the situation.

Geo you say you have to move the body around the fixed point, but that would be the job of the movement keys (if stationary gun). If not stationary the movem,ent keys would be probably as flexible as normal movement, only the mouse movement would make the 'leaned' weapon behave stationary and the mouse should not be reversed.

 

[DeMachina]

The mouse is not inverted as long as you remember the the mouse (in combination with the 'leankey') is used to move your body (but not your feet). However, in most FPS, you're used to be a floating gun (which is something a game aiming for realism should get as far away from), so this would not be intuitive at first. However, I do think that the benefit are worth the (relatively small) learning curve. Of course, it's hard to say without any testing.

The real problem with movement being inversed when locked is that you don't really have a choice to make different key for the 'leankey' and 'pivotlock'.
Example if you'd be using the same key for both; you're holding the leankey and moving your mouse toward the right (your view/gun moves toward the right), then suddently, you're weapon comes in contact with some object and locks on it : your gun start moving in the opposite direction while you clearly don't want this to happen. If you were moving your mouse fast enough, the result will probably feel very awkward.

 

[yurch]

This may be technically unfeasible and I may have missed some gameplay issues. I believe that an extension of the weapon collision should be included. Your weapon would have a thin "trace" projecting underneath it checking the distance between itself and whatever it reaches. If the distance reaches a pre-set limit (like say 2cm or less). When it does, your weapon becomes more steadier and you can still mvoe yourself and your weapon around as long, with the accuracy bonus, as long as the trace is still on the object. Basically, you can swivel your weapon around more accurately, but you are still able to move away freely or take cover should you need to.

The problem with this idea is that the height of the rest-object will wreck things. In order to aim lower, you will need to raise the body first and then 'rest' the weapon again, and you may then find the target is still too low or too high to maintain contact on the object.

The aforementioned 'lock' is rotational/orientation only.

* I think it would involve a lot of CPU usage. This could be tweaked by only having the trace activate near objects the mapper has designated as suitable (but this presents problems for the mapper and the player if they feel they should be able to support their weapon on an object but the mapper doesn't).

Traces have very minimal CPU impact, usually. Mapping support would be a real pain in the ass for above reasons, plus the trouble of placing support actors everywhere.

I'll try and play around with a diagram to make it clearer . I know it doesn't seem like much of an idea, but I think that certain movements should be natural and fluid, not clunky.

I'd be interested to see, I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean.

Very interesting. If you can make that the player model could be crouched just at the desired height to see the target and still use the maximum cover (ie. the enemy only will see your weapon and half of your head), it should be very useful. For that, the player should have to input how much stand up / down, when he has the weapon "deployed".

In this mode, mouse controls lean/height and not the rotation, so the height is in direct control of the player.

I think the original idea that leaning onto a surface rests your weapon on it is great, but as long as there are no movement boundaries. Maybe something like automatically unlocking/unresting when you pivot too far. I know that was a real pain when you are prone, and if an enemy wants to survive they just have to go into your rotation's blind spot.

Like before, the mouse controls lean, so it will make little sense to 'unlock' at some threshold - after all, what would that be? Releasing the key immediately releases any 'restrictions' on the player anyway.

The real problem with movement being inversed when locked is that you don't really have a choice to make different key for the 'leankey' and 'pivotlock'.

It is an interesting problem. Lean is always inverted right now, so I don't have the problem yet.


Lemme see if I can diagram this somehow to make it easier for some to understand.

 

[yurch]

Here is a little animated thing of a combine soldier doing the fluid-lean dance. (warning, a tad large) Yes, I'm swerving him back and forth, but note the height changes too.

Think of the weapon as a sort of see-saw, with the bipod in the center. As the soldier shifts in one direction, the tip of the weapon is going to move towards the other direction, effectively letting him aim.

 

[MP_Duke]

That guy's goin' to town.
What does it look like in first person?