....

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

"There is no skill hunting geese with a shotgun."

Hmm, well I've never hunted geese, but if they are anything like ducks (which I'm pretty sure they are), that's not true.

The ways I am challenged when hunting duck in Arizona are as follows:

1. Finding ducks: This can be a problem in Arizona when it doesn't get cold or wet enough during the season. Because I have almost 10 years of experience hunting the tanks (ponds with embankments) around Tombstone, I can usually find a few tanks to jump that have ducks on them, but there is no certainty. When it comes down to it, I am at the mercy of the weather.

2. Jumping the tanks: Even if you can locate a tank with ducks on it, they'll hear you and be scared off if you just drive up to the embankment. You have to park the vehicle a good distance back, get the shotgun(s) out of the back, and walk as quietly as you can to the tank. You have to listen as well, because you can hear the ducks lifting off of the water if they are spooked- if that happens you jump the tank then and hope to get a shot while they're still in range. When you reach the tank, you find good spots on the embankment that you can go up without slipping or finding your shot blocked by trees, coordinate the jump with anybody else you're hunting with, and then run up the slope (worrying about your gun safety, the ducks, and the ground beneath you all at the same time.

3. Assessing targets: You can't just start blasting away at anything that moves- you have to first assess that 1) It's a safe shot, 2) It's a duck, 3) It's in range, and 4) You have room for it on your liscences. Not only do you have a total duck limit per liscence per day, some of the individual types of duck have their limits (for instance, it's usually 2 mallards per liscence per day, only one of which can be female).

4. Shooting: On the average shot, the size of the spread is slightly larger than the duck's wingspan when it gets to him, and ducks are fairly tough- you're gonna have to put most of the pellets on him to take him down, esp. with mallards and such. Accuracy definately matters against duck. In order to shoot accurately, you have to take into account both the distance, speed, and angle of the duck's flight, and lead off (aim ahead of the target) accordingly. If you just aim directly at him the duck will probably be gone by the time the shot gets there, and you'll have missed by as many as 5 feet. You also need to control your breathing, learn to correctly hold off (wait until the duck comes to your point of aim) or track (move your gun with the duck as it flies), and squeeze the trigger evenly instead of jerking it. All things considered, doing this with a bow and arrow would be pretty damned impossible. You also can't legally hunt any birds in Arizona with a gun capable of holding more than 3 shells- if your gun does you need to get a plug to limit the magazine capacity to 2 (+1 in the chamber makes 3). And lastly, on the rare occasions that some dumbass teal stays on the water instead of flying, we wait or scare it up before we shoot- shooting a non-moving bird with a shotgun is like taking candy from a baby.

5. Recovering ducks: Sometimes you have a dog with you, which makes this step alot easier, but that's not always an option. Like I said, ducks are tough, and if you just wing them and they land on solid ground, they will give you a run for your money through the thickest brush available. We've spent as much as an hour searching for wounded ducks without a dog- it's kind of a downer to know you've ruined the duck's life but let it die a slow death, so we've never given up as of yet.

6. Tracking: The ducks that got away will be much too far to see by the time you get back to your vehicle, so you'll have to watch as the ducks fly off and guess where they're going (again, if you don't know the area you could have quite a bit of trouble here).

Well, that's it. There obviously are ways to hunt more sportingly (waiting for birds to fly, etc), and downright unfair ways to "hunt" (killing animals that are in fenced in areas of countryside and are practically domesticated), but generalizing all waterfowl shotgun hunting as requiring no skill isn't accurate.

(WHEW! *inhales slowly*)

_______________________
In Orwell's hell, a terror era comin through,
but this little brother, is watching you too.

[This message was edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] on Nov 08, 2000 at 02:22.]

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Indeed. I've done all sorts of hunting (note to any hunting enthusiasts in the United States: Canada has EXCELLENT game, should drive north, the bastards grow huge up here, especially in Quebec.)

I've gone deer hunting (my particular favorite, as it is very hard to do properly, deer can run damn fast, even when wounded... you actually feel that even though you're the one with the gun and the binocular vision, you're in for a real fight for your meat) as well as duck hunting. Its fair to say shooting fowl with a shotgun doesn't require as much skill as, say, knocking the bird out of the air with a rock, but its still a damn tough job. Hitting something with a spread weapon like a shotgun is harder than it seems. For obvious reasons, a shotgun SUCKS at long range. The pellets lose velocity fast, and are to spread out to cause serious damage. As a matter of fact, shooting at a duck (or any fowl) when they are in full flight and actually bagging it (with anything less than a flak gun) is nearly impossible... only one or two pellets may make contact, and in the event that they do, they'll have lost so much kinetic energy that they'll be the equivalent of somebody throwing a .50 BMG shell at your head. Big in relation to your body, sure, but its not going to do alot of damage. You may get some sort of small bruise if you're a hemophiliac.

I can't see why people whine and cry about hunting with guns. You see all these vegetarian idiots (when I say this I refer to people who don't eat meat because its murder, rather hypocritical considering they have no problem killing plants, which are living things, or swatting flies, which are also animals -- something they conveniently "forget" from biology class. People who don't eat meat cause they don't like the taste, that's fine by me.) Anyways, you see all these vegans going "but that's not fair." Well, there's two problems with that statement. One, man is a tool using animal. If they want "fair", they should go break all the thumbs on every chimpanzee they see, too. They use tools as well. Two, as a tool using animal, man is an omnivorous predator. Therefore, we prey on things with the advantage of ours tools. Every animal has a strength and weakness. Our strength is our ability to use advanced tools logically and intuitively. Our weakness is we're very frail if put toe-to-toe with another animal.

That, sir, is very fair.

Besides, hunting is the best form of conservation

 

[Goat Fucker]

I love hunting, i do i little fesan hunting now and then with my HUGE air rifle, but i only kill one fesan each time, and i allways eat what i catch (IMO, if u kill it and dont eat it, youre a frag).

The only way i can ever kill such an animal is fruw the use of tools, theres no way im gonna out run it, and im sertanly not gonna out fly it!
The only way is to use a gun/bow or traps (i hate traps so thats not an option for me).

I have yet to shame shoot an animal, and hope to never do so.

Imo, hunting is only bad if u do it for the rong purpose, hunting is a sport today, u could allways go down to the local supermarked and buy something to eat. But hunting is also more than a sport, its about reconecting youreself with youre roots, a real hunter respects his prey, and only takes that shot if he is sertain that it´ll kill it, its about moral, the hunter has meny moral codexes he lives by, and he will use half a day tracking a shame shot animal.
If u dont see any of thease things in hunting, u´re not a hunter, so put youre weapon back in youre truck an take it to the range.

HEAD SLAYER GOAT of the Black Hand BMA tribe.

 

[Bad.Mojo]

Goat, let me tell you something

A blind man cannot see the colour of our skin. He cannot see if we pierce our bodies. He cannot see if we tattoo them. A blind man cannot see if we are crippled. A blind man can only see our actions, and judge us based on those. In that, I envy the blind -- for they see more than you or I ever will.

When you first came to these forums, you apologized many times for your broken english. You speak better my mother tongue better than I could speak yours. Man, the clarity with which you speak, the purity of the message, is only enhanced by that wonderful will of yours to strive to communicate.

It never ceases to amaze me

 

[I_ABuGa]

Its funny that megaman commented on duck hunting with shotguns as not having skill. Where I live, we have a crow problem. Open garbage bins, clogged drains and such has created a boom in the crow population. Our [sarcasm] beloved town planning office (those with more fluent malay please correct me - Majlis Perbandaran) believes that makin it open season on crows would help. Its like a dollar a crow or something besides base fee. The hunters use shotguns, 12 gauge at that, and at the end of the day they barely have any kills.

Anywho, living in a country where its darned difficult to obtain guns and knowing lots of world history, i can understand why some people are pro guns and others not. Its not only culture, its upbringing, education, environment etc etc. In the end it depends on the right and desire of a person to own a gun, and to know the responsibilities of that tool, to be responsible for its keeping and its use. The irresponsible use of the tool called gun is the main cause of all those problems arising today. Thus i definitely agree with education and I do think that licensing is a good idea. We license people to drive cars, start companies, live in a country etc etc. after all.

 

[Lord_Bunker]

you don't have to eat what you kill. here in kansas there's such a thing as farmkill. if it's not endangered and it's bothering your livestock you can kill it but you gotta leave it lie.

so, if you got coyotes after your cattle what do you do. you go out one the back poarch and shoot'em. i've never eaten a coyote and the idea dosn't appeal very much to me either. so if people who don't eat everything they shoot are frags then i guess you eat dogs and skunks and everyother vermin.

but, before somebody bites my head of. this isn't exactly hunting. it's serving a purpose though. going out just for the fun of shooting is poaching. (except for coyotes in my county where you can still take their ears to the court house for a bounty.)

guns are very important for farmers. I've known people who've had several calves killed by wild dogs and coyotes. what esle would you do with these animals, beat them with a stick.

Lord Bunker
Ruler of The Bunkvanian Empire
"only the first shot truly matters, everything else is just a waste of paint."

 

[Zundfolge]

Hey Lord Bunker, Which part of KS you from?
I'm stuck here in Wichita /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (still ploting my escape to the rarified air of the Rocky Mountains)

I remember hunting rabbits as a kid, both with a bow and a .22. Those where some fun times /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also remember shooting rats in my grandmothers barn (she lived on a farm outside of Burton) I got a quarter a piece for them. Anyway, usualy I'd use the .22, but one time I got my hands on my aunt's boyfriend's .3006. Got 2 rats before I realized that blowing holes in the wall of the barn was a bad idea (plus when you vaporize the rat, you don't get paid for them)

 

[Bad.Mojo]

On the coyote thing:

As much as coyotes have the right to live and feed, so do humans. If coyotes are endagering the human stock of food, it becomes an immediate fight for survival.

And, in that case, may the best species win. You'll never stop the coyotes, ever. You'll drive them back, for sure, but when they get low in population, the cattle population will grow -- and create more food for the coyotes to grow tougher on. Grow larger numbers. Protecting your source of food isn't WRONG. Plenty of animals protect their kills until they're all eaten, and leave the scraps to the all-important carrion eaters, who accelerate the process of breaking down their bodies -- we just happen to protect our kills before they're actually dead.

Nothing wrong with that at all

 

[Lord_Bunker]

i told you they have a obunty. been that way since the turn of the century. there's obviosly still a problem with them. skunks are also a prob. number 1 carrier of rabies in kansas. my neighbor started up his tractor to find 11 under the bushhog. I usually use my bbgun. i've droped a coyote or 2 with it. trick is you have to hit them deadon in the ear or my fav. the eye. and pellets don't do ****. need the extra penetration of a bb. somebody wanted to know where i'm from. I'm from Linn county. I'm not claiming a town. I'm currently at KSU.

Lord Bunker
Ruler of The Bunkvanian Empire
"only the first shot truly matters, everything else is just a waste of paint."

 

[Gener@l Motors]

re: steamrolled twice DOCCERS ?

Steamrolled twice? Hmm. Thought the Netherlands where neutral during WO 1.

We actually made pretty good money as well selling ammo to da Brits, Germs and the garlicbreaths.

 

[Goat Fucker]

Thanks Mojo, i meens something coming from you.

Thanks Mojo, i dident know anyone cared at all!
How long has that message been there, i allmost feel ashame not seeing it sooner.

Anyways, just to clearify my opinion.
Im not talking about shooting vermain or predetors preying on youre livestock, thats ok IMO.

Im talking about the "hunters" who shoot everything in sight, be it small or big, stacks it in a pile and takes a photo of it, and leaves it to decay!
If u go hunting, u should goddamn eat what u shoot, or give youre kill to someone who will.
When u just go hunting for kills, youre doing it for the "rong reason", then its just to went steam and release agresion, u can do that at the range withot killing anything!

IMO, the only time a kill is justifyable, is when its done to save youre ass (or someone elses), or for food.
Obviously theres greyzones in this philosofy, but thats were ones interlect should take over!

All hail the PRF!