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Mclogenog

Mclogenog

I put the lol in philology
Feb 8, 2008
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Christmas books

F.M. Esfandiary's Optimism One and Theodore Kaczynski's Industrial Society and Its Future
These books should be read together, preferably with Optimism One before Industrial Society. They share the same ideas, or perhaps more accurately the same data, but completely contrary results and ideologies. Those ideologies are Transhumanism alongside existential optimism (comparable to the philosophy of Nietzsche), and Neo-Luddism respectively. Both are incredibly persuasive books for either side, so a very careful and balanced reading of their ideas is essential. Again, if you wish to read either book, make sure to read both.

Surprisingly, Esfandiary's argument holds up and seems more psychologically and socially sound, despite being written almost 30 years prior to Industrial Society (that is, published in 1970). This may be my own bias towards optimistic existentialism, but Esfandiary presents many real world examples and develops a strong ethos, even if his logos is a little weak. Contrarily, Kaczynski develops a thorough logos for his abstract fears of technological advance without almost any real world support or examples. However, Kaczynski's logic falls apart in the last few passage, resulting in what I felt to be highly hypocritical dogma, and futile propositions that would at best result in the same damages he suggests are occurring as a result of industrial society.

Now, where this reading has me confused is that both cite the attitudes of preindustrial man as proof of postindustrial man's happiness or contentment. Esfandiary says man was not freer or closer to nature in preindustrial society because man was in battle and thereby alienated from nature. Yet Kaczynski says alienation from nature is purely a condition of the modern man, and says so in a tone as if it is obviously and irrefutable. The actual data is lacking in both instances (favoring Esfandiary) and demands more research beyond otherwise accepting the "obvious" knowledge of mankind's present condition in comparison to the past.

All of this said, Optimism One is an unfortunately uncommon book, though it should be the exact opposite. As far as I am aware, the book was only printed once, though used copies are available for a few bucks. In contrast, Industrial Society is widely available, though I was reading the latest edition as published in Technological Slavery. The concepts in these books are important as technology increases. You owe it to yourself as citizens of democratic societies to be aware of both sides before facing the inevitable legislation or social movements in ignorance. And if not, at least they're good reads.
 
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Neddaf

Neddaf

Just a flesh wound!
Jul 19, 2001
1,442
4
38
Los Angeles, California
Mclogenog said:
F.M. Esfandiary's Optimism One and Theodore Kaczynski's Industrial Society and Its Future
These books should be read together, preferably with Optimism One before Industrial Society. They share the same ideas, or perhaps more accurately the same data, but completely contrary results and ideologies. Those ideologies are Transhumanism alongside existential optimism (comparable to the philosophy of Nietzsche), and Neo-Luddism respectively. Both are incredibly persuasive books for either side, so a very careful and balanced reading of their ideas is essential. Again, if you wish to read either book, make sure to read both.

Surprisingly, Esfandiary's argument holds up and seems more psychologically and socially sound, despite being written almost 30 years prior to Industrial Society (that is, published in 1970). This may be my own bias towards optimistic existentialism, but Esfandiary presents many real world examples and develops a strong ethos, even if his logos is a little weak. Contrarily, Kaczynski develops a thorough logos for his abstract fears of technological advance without almost any real world support or examples. However, Kaczynski's logic falls apart in the last few passage, resulting in what I felt to be highly hypocritical dogma, and futile propositions that would at best result in the same damages he suggests are occurring as a result of industrial society.

Now, where this reading has me confused is that both cite the attitudes of preindustrial man as proof of postindustrial man's happiness or contentment. Esfandiary says man was not freer or closer to nature in preindustrial society because man was in battle and thereby alienated from nature. Yet Kaczynski says alienation from nature is purely a condition of the modern man, and says so in a tone as if it is obviously and irrefutable. The actual data is lacking in both instances (favoring Esfandiary) and demands more research beyond otherwise accepting the "obvious" knowledge of mankind's present condition in comparison to the past.

All of this said, Optimism One is an unfortunately uncommon book, though it should be the exact opposite. As far as I am aware, the book was only printed once, though used copies are available for a few bucks. In contrast, Industrial Society is widely available, though I was reading the latest edition as published in Technological Slavery. The concepts in these books are important as technology increases. You owe it to yourself as citizens of democratic societies to be aware of both sides before facing the inevitable legislation or social movements in ignorance. And if not, at least they're good reads.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are tossing around the very existential issues I toss around in my head. As much as I wish I could be a Neo-Luddite, it is hard to even start. At least I'm getting rid of my television service this week. I'll check these out after I'm finished reading The Idiot, by Dostoevsky.
 
Plumb_Drumb

Plumb_Drumb

yumb
Mar 19, 2002
8,616
1
0
Denver Co. USA
Visit site
I shall type the bible starting from the end starting here. (are they verses? or chapters? I don't know)

Revelation 22: 21- The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Why is "be" italicized? whatever.

Revelation 22: 20- He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly: Amen.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

So many grammatical errors there, even a lowly American such as I would die a nightmare.
Anyway, carrying on

Revelation 22: 19- And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Why the heck is "from" italicized?

tbc... I'm tired (this is turning out to be a ****ing project)

Revelation 22: 18- For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

(grammatical errors seem to be the fad of the aged past)

Revelation 22: 17- And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirist come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22: 16- I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the off-spring of David, and the bright and morning star.
(okay, that was one eighth of a page... only 262 more to go... lord help me)

Revelation 22: 15- For without are dogs, and sorcerors, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22: 14- Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have rights to the tree of life, ad may enter in through the gates into the city.

This is going to take a long time.

Revelation 22: 13- I am Alpha and O-mega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last

Revelation 22: 12- And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22: 11- He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Revelation 22: 10- And he saith unto me, Seal not thesayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 22: 09- Then saith he unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for this time is at hand.

Ooookayyyy
Revelation 22: 08- And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.

what the **** is going on here, people?

Revelation 22: 07- Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he the keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book or somethig

Revelation 22: 06- And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sents his angel to show unto his servants what must shortly be done.

I'm so tired.

Revelation 22: 05- And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 22: 04- And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 22: 03- And there shall be no more curse; but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Revelation 22: 02- In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
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Mclogenog

Mclogenog

I put the lol in philology
Feb 8, 2008
645
0
0
Oregon, U.S.A.
mclogenog.wordpress.com
Neddaf said:
Sounds like you are tossing around the very existential issues I toss around in my head. As much as I wish I could be a Neo-Luddite, it is hard to even start. At least I'm getting rid of my television service this week. I'll check these out after I'm finished reading The Idiot, by Dostoevsky.
Click to expand...
Indeed, as much as I see the appeal of Neo-Luddism, I see it as futile and, in places, conceptually broken. There are ideas I agree with, and getting rid of television services certainly is one of them. However, technology will continue to advance, despite any setbacks, as long as humans exist. The same can be said of Christianity (or any faith for that matter), of which Dostoevsky wrote "If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not with truth." And if it was a question of nihilism or Christianity, I would have to agree using Notes From Underground alone as my evidence. However, Nietzsche presented the option of what I consider to be existential optimism, a love of life, and a will to power. (I think I wrote about that a little in my thoughts on Thus Spoke Zarathustra.) Returning to Neo-Luddism, Kaczynski says that eventually we'll create strong AI, which will either replaces us or be used by us, thereby removing any purposes or goals from our lives. However, I think human integration with technology is the unwritten option, a transhuman route. But then there is question of the soul and humanity. These are really difficult topics. I mean, these are all intelligent people, very intelligent people, yet they hold polarized views. They can't both be right, and none of them are probably universally right. It's quite the trick.

Anyway, I can't speak for The Idiot, but I love Dostoevsky's work. If you haven't read them, I recommend Demons and Notes From Underground (particularly the Pevear and Volokhonsky translations).
 
Neddaf

Neddaf

Just a flesh wound!
Jul 19, 2001
1,442
4
38
Los Angeles, California
Mclogenog said:
Indeed, as much as I see the appeal of Neo-Luddism, I see it as futile and, in places, conceptually broken. There are ideas I agree with, and getting rid of television services certainly is one of them. However, technology will continue to advance, despite any setbacks, as long as humans exist. The same can be said of Christianity (or any faith for that matter), of which Dostoevsky wrote "If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not with truth." And if it was a question of nihilism or Christianity, I would have to agree using Notes From Underground alone as my evidence. However, Nietzsche presented the option of what I consider to be existential optimism, a love of life, and a will to power. (I think I wrote about that a little in my thoughts on Thus Spoke Zarathustra.) Returning to Neo-Luddism, Kaczynski says that eventually we'll create strong AI, which will either replaces us or be used by us, thereby removing any purposes or goals from our lives. However, I think human integration with technology is the unwritten option, a transhuman route. But then there is question of the soul and humanity. These are really difficult topics. I mean, these are all intelligent people, very intelligent people, yet they hold polarized views. They can't both be right, and none of them are probably universally right. It's quite the trick.

Anyway, I can't speak for The Idiot, but I love Dostoevsky's work. If you haven't read them, I recommend Demons and Notes From Underground (particularly the Pevear and Volokhonsky translations).
Click to expand...

Demons and Notes From Underground are what Chris Hedges often refers to when analyzing the death of the liberal class (also a book in the same name). They once were liberal, object minded, but retreat into self-loathing and self-aggrandizement with no realistic assessment of the issues they face.

Glad to see someone else out there interested in the same things...
 
dragonfliet

dragonfliet

I write stuffs
Apr 24, 2006
3,754
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Gun With Occassional Music by Jonathan Letham- A

Yes, there is a quote that starts this book off by Raymond Chandler, and yes, it is written in that hard-boiled detective style, and yes it is set in the future and deals with individuality and choice, which brings up all of the Dick references, but this is a book that more than anything is channeling the lovechild of Huxley and Orwell.

Set in a future that is not entirely dissimilar to the fifties, it is populated with evolved animals and sarcastic, whiskey drinking babies and everyone does state-approved drugs to keep them docile. Only the police (called inquisitors) are ever allowed to ask questions and you are kept in check through your Karma, which the police may give or take away at will.

While the action that drives this plot forward is a murder (like most detective stories), the tension is society (again, like most detective stories) and the protagonist operates in that margin in which is he a part of society and is protecting it, but is also apart from society at the same time. Like Huxley and Orwell, this is the tension, that loathing of the normal people and their vices mixed with that desire to be them, that complicity that accompanies the desire to buck. It gets under your skin and while it's there with its social message and overt government big-brotherness it slips in questions of race and sexuality and prejudice, individuality and that question of what we should let slide and what we should stand up for. It ends not triumphantly, but somehow majestically, blending the endings of 1984 and Brave New World with the expectations of the crime genre.

This is a fantastic book in every facet of the word and a mashup that works excellently.

~Jason
 
Sir_Brizz

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
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I'm not big into philosophical, non-fiction reading. I just finished a book called Spinward Fringe Broadcast 0: Origins (three books in one, about 1300 pages) and REALLY liked it. It's a sci-fi thriller (with a few pages of cheesy romantic crap) with lots of action and, what I think, is a boatload of good plot.

Also, it's free on bn.com or smashwords.com.
 
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