Welcome To A New America!!!!! (For the better even)

  • Two Factor Authentication is now available on BeyondUnreal Forums. To configure it, visit your Profile and look for the "Two Step Verification" option on the left side. We can send codes via email (may be slower) or you can set up any TOTP Authenticator app on your phone (Authy, Google Authenticator, etc) to deliver codes. It is highly recommended that you configure this to keep your account safe.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
10,065
218
63
somewhere; sometime?
government getting involved in the free market.....and leaving antiquated laws in place instead of moving to the 21st century

Is this not typical of most governments today?

It seems that (as far as trade is concerned) you're either oppressively controlling the entire nations economy or letting it run wild with reckless abandon in the hopes that it "works itself out."

I'm just curious, where the hell is the middle ground?
People get up in arms when they hear about communism/socialism and democracy only works in places where social policy allows for the necessary tools. Now even the big wigs like Greenspan have come out and admitted that their concepts and practices, the ones which led to such a run-on in the free market were fundamentally flawed; a misinterpretation of "basic human nature" I think is the way he put it.
 
Last edited:

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
Is this not typical of most governments today?

It seems that (as far as trade is concerned) you're either oppressively controlling the entire nations economy or letting it run wild with reckless abandon in the hopes that it "works itself out."

I'm just curious, where the hell is the middle ground?
People get up in arms when they hear about communism/socialism and democracy only works in places where social policy allows for the necessary tools. Now even the big wigs like Greenspan have come out and admitted that their concepts and practices, the ones which led to such a run-on in the free market were fundamentally flawed; a misinterpretation of "basic human nature" I think is the way he put it.
You've really unintentionally hit the nail on the head in your post, though. Do you want the government (who screws up every market they get involved in) to control every, or almost every, market (socialism)? I sure don't.

I'm happy with the way our country works when the government does what it is supposed to.
 

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
10,065
218
63
somewhere; sometime?
I'm happy with the way our country works when the government does what it is supposed to.

But then isn't that another part of the issue?

Government can't seem to even decide what it's role is supposed to be anymore.
At one point we were supposed to be isolationist. Now it's too late to go back. But now we're juggling the competing demands of the international community with those of our own citizens.
 
Last edited:

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
But then isn't that another part of the issue?

Government can't seem to even decide what it's role is supposed to be anymore.
At one point we were supposed to be isolationist. Now it's too late to go back. But now we're juggling the competing demands of the international community with those of our own citizens.
But whose fault is that? The Constitution gives us a perfectly fine guideline for the involvement of federal government in citizen's lives. The problem is that the federal government is not satisfied with limited power, they want to be as powerful or more powerful than local and state governments and they shouldn't be.
 

Neddaf

Just a flesh wound!
Jul 19, 2001
1,442
4
38
Los Angeles, California
Seriously though, we all know politicians have never gotten the job done, since the beginning of time. An egotistical being can't possibly serve the people AND him/herself. It's never worked, but allows a semi-screwed up society to stand upright, even if it has bad posture.

Things consistently true throughout history...

1. War
2. Government Screwing People
3. Racial Group Scapegoats
etc...

The list could go on I'm sure, but I just interested with these 3 things above.
 

Jacks:Revenge

╠╣E╚╚O
Jun 18, 2006
10,065
218
63
somewhere; sometime?
So is this problem even avoidable? It's pretty universal so far as I can tell, the corruption of men is merely a natural characteristic.

Speaking of Greenspan and his failed theory on human nature, it seems there's only one thing about humans you can absolutely count on: greed.

:(
 

Neddaf

Just a flesh wound!
Jul 19, 2001
1,442
4
38
Los Angeles, California
History would say it isn't avoidable. But this isn't purely a political thing, this happens on every level of our life, right down to human interaction with our best friends. I know I've had altercations with my best friends because of Greed and other common issues found in government.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
11,708
8
38
48
Politics is obsolete. Something new needs to happen.
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
3,793
0
0
Tx.
www.desert-conflict.org
But whose fault is that? The Constitution gives us a perfectly fine guideline for the involvement of federal government in citizen's lives. The problem is that the federal government is not satisfied with limited power, they want to be as powerful or more powerful than local and state governments and they shouldn't be.
+1

So is this problem even avoidable? ... it seems there's only one thing about humans you can absolutely count on: greed.
As this current housing crisis illustrates, injecting socialism into a capitalist system has horrible results
 

KaiserWarrior

Flyin' High
Aug 5, 2008
800
0
0
But really, come on guys. This isn't a problem with Capitalism, this is a problem with government getting involved in the free market with something like patents and leaving antiquated laws in place instead of moving to the 21st century.

No, it really is a problem with the basic assumptions of Capitalism. When the highest motivation is greed, the public good falls by the wayside. Government patent law is what it is, but it doesn't force people to game the system in an attempt to obtain unlimited patents which they know they're not supposed to have under that system. People deliberately choose to abuse the system for gain, because that is their highest motivator. Paulson locked the bank execs in a room and told them they weren't leaving until they took federal money -- but everyone in that room knew that wasn't legally enforceable. If those execs had really cared about doing the right thing, they would have stood up and said 'No'. The government could not force them to do anything. But who were they to turn down billions of free dollars at the public expense? They chose to harm the community for their own gain when the opportunity was presented.

Look at LG and Sharp being fined for price fixing LCD monitors recently. Again, the system is abused for gain because ultimately, gain is the only goal they are pursuing. Yes, in a perfect world they would compete as a 'free market' is supposed to do, but why should they? In order to do that, they have to be motivated to do so. Why deliberately reduce their profits when they can simply collude and keep their profits higher?

It is for that reason that 'Capitalism', as a single, solitary governing principle in the economy, does not work. It makes the basic assumption that the producers won't deliberately harm the community for profit, and that is not nor has it ever been the case.

Take the auto industry. A lot of people (not necessarily those here on BuF) like to say that what hurt the Big 3 so much was government regulation about safety standards, emissions standards, and the like. But really, do these people believe the world would be better if they were allowed to go back to their safety standards before government stepped in and forced them not to put their workers in as much danger? Before they were forced to build to a certain level of emissions compliance? Global warming is of course debatable, but the smog hanging over places like LA is not.

Government intervention certainly doesn't help matters. But the basic premise is as flawed as any other system. It is better than most other systems because, in the end, it rewards personal effort. But it also has a sinister side of encouraging anti-social activity because that activity, in the end, is more profitable.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
So... by definition someone who believes purely in the capitalist market system is also non-charitable? :con:

Just read Larkin's post about the cure for cancer, that illustrates perfectly the kind of "Capitalist" that makes this world an awfull place to live.

When it comes to Capitalism, you've got 2 basic groups, the idealist "lessie faire" guys who belive in free market trade, may the best product for the best price win, a system i can actually get behind.

And then you've got your Fat-Cats, who seek only personal profit nomatter what the human cost, who do not want free and fair trade, but profitable monopolies where they can dictate the price without any competition getting in the way.


Currently, the system works in favour of the Fat-Cats, the big fish with the expensive lawyers allways wins, what we're seeing is definately not free market trade, it is monopoly building and manipulation of the free market.

(Yes, this post is entirely black and white, but it is to illustrate the point, i know the real would is more colourfull than this)
 

hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
21,409
19
38
54
------->
www.beyondunreal.com
You're all over the place.

"When the highest motivation is greed"

I think it's a mistake to assume that greed is the highest motivation in capitalism. Greed is a human behavior and not at all limited to people active in any socio-economic system. We have people that are generous and charitable and their businesses reflect that - and we have the complete opposite. People are free to choose which one they patronize.

Yes, there are patent abuses but that is a problem of law, not of capitalism. Patents are intended for you to be able to enjoy the fruits of your labor, not totally strangle competition - on which capitalism thrives. In that case, the consumer loses and there's very clearly a problem.

On the other hand, you can't fault a company for protecting what, under the law, is theirs to protect. If there are abuses at hand, then they need to be addressed legislatively so that the market can thrive.

What hurt the Big 3 automakers was not safety standards... those are things that people demand anyhow. Sure the emission standards - particularly in states like California - are a pain, but all manufacturers have to abide by them. The problem was that they made some really horrible deals with the UAW that made the costs of manufacturing an automobile much higher than that of foreign held companies like Toyota and Honda. The latter could put more into design and quality and still produce a cheaper vehicle that held its value longer.

So what you've done, in essence, is grab a whole bunch of flaws within the not-so-purely-capitalistic system we've devolved into here in the U.S. and made it your case for why capitalism doesn't work. Well guess what? It does when it is allowed to work as planned.
 

hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
21,409
19
38
54
------->
www.beyondunreal.com
Just read Larkin's post about the cure for cancer, that illustrates perfectly the kind of "Capitalist" that makes this world an awfull place to live.

And I don't disagree. What you see in the States right now is Capitalism that's been mucked around with. Not at all what is should be or what got us here to begin with.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
You know what is really deliciously ironic? China, a psudo Communist country, actually has better free market capitalism than the USA and all of Europe, simply because they have abolished all copyright and trademark laws, any company can copy any product and sell it at whatever price they want, down there, it really is a matter of "may the best product for the best price win", where both consumers and smart buisnessmen alike stand to gain.

That's also the only nice thing i have to say about China, but nontheless, the irony is delicious! :lol:
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
83
48
Well, since they are communist they can also shut down, arrest, kill anyone who is doing something they don't like :p
 

Crotale

_________________________ _______________
Jan 20, 2008
2,535
12
38
Anywhere But Here
You know what is really deliciously ironic? China, a psudo Communist country, actually has better free market capitalism than the USA and all of Europe, simply because they have abolished all copyright and trademark laws, any company can copy any product and sell it at whatever price they want, down there, it really is a matter of "may the best product for the best price win", where both consumers and smart buisnessmen alike stand to gain.

That's also the only nice thing i have to say about China, but nontheless, the irony is delicious! :lol:
Actually, China did not abolish trademark or copyright laws. In fact, their trademark and IP laws are quite strict compared to the fact that no laws of this kind existed there a few decades ago.

Odd that you tried to argue that angle, in that the most illegal software sold is coming from China. I'm not talking about simple pirating of software; no, I'm referring to the illegal mass replication and distribution of software for profit.
 
You know what is really deliciously ironic? China, a psudo Communist country, actually has better free market capitalism than the USA and all of Europe, simply because they have abolished all copyright and trademark laws, any company can copy any product and sell it at whatever price they want, down there, it really is a matter of "may the best product for the best price win", where both consumers and smart buisnessmen alike stand to gain.

Yeah. But they got a little problem with lead in the paint tho.
 

Grobut

Комиссар Гробут
Oct 27, 2004
1,822
0
0
Soviet Denmark
Actually, China did not abolish trademark or copyright laws. In fact, their trademark and IP laws are quite strict compared to the fact that no laws of this kind existed there a few decades ago.

Source? because i'm still seeing tons of new clone products coming from Chinese manufacturers, that are a 1:1 copy of other products avalible from other Asian, Western and other Chinese companies.

I belive this is also why a certain Mr. Gates is very displeased with the Chinese, as not folowing our rules means they are not paying him a penny.

Odd that you tried to argue that angle, in that the most illegal software sold is coming from China. I'm not talking about simple pirating of software; no, I'm referring to the illegal mass replication and distribution of software for profit.

Illegal here, absolutely! but illegal there? ahh, now that's a different matter ;)

It is a very different market over there, that's for sure.

Yeah. But they got a little problem with lead in the paint tho.

They certainly do, same with high contense of PVC and other nasty things, they dont exactly hold manufacturers to quite the same safety standards as we do, of that you can be quite certain! :lol:


Mind, i am not trying to pass of China as some jolly great place to be, im just having some fun with the irony of it ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.