Welcome To A New America!!!!! (For the better even)

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Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Capitalism works because it takes into account human nature. People are naturally greedy and the reason you get into business and start selling a product is to make money.

Yes, but I still bet you get a kick from making something useful. It's that win-win situation again. Make medecine, sell at the right price and you're in business. It's what creates that wonderful thing called motivation.

Contrast this with typical approach of *cough* GSK or *cough* Pfizer *cough* to making super-patented medecine that people depend on to live and making it expensive. I bet tri-therary that is used to treat aids still costs a lot (so much for the people who have AIDS in Africa). That's a win-lose situation. The pharmaceutics company and it's investors win and the patient loses, or whatever insurance is backing them up.

Oh yeah, I know that developping new molecules is expensive. However, I don't see how the pharmaceutical industry agreed to expiring patents and generic medecine if it was totally unprofitable. In fact, it's become quite a sport for the pharmaceutical people to convince doctors to overprescribe medecines in exchange for holidays. This hasn't gone unnoticed since this is putting a heavy drain on public health insurance and patients are asked to request the generic equivalent of whatever medicine they need. The "Kiwi" system (in New Zealand ?) has taken this a step further by only refunding the cheapest brand on the market.

Selfishness in itself is good. Everyone has to learn how to be selfish to some degree. It's all about doing what has to be done to reach your goals. But walking on the heads of other people is not a good way to win popularity marks.

Sure you can try to make it work with a bunch of rules and regulations, but then its not really working on its own is it?

How about leaving stocks and finance alone and placing the rules elsewhere ? Leave finance to do it's job and but the safeguards on the economy itself. It's either that or you acknowledge the idea that some people risk leading very, very miserable lives through no fault of their on because they listened to the wrong advice. Those investment people can be pretty convincing when they want to even when you have little to spare.

What he also fails to realize is that government doesn't have the mechanics to do what the free market does nor is it even constitutional.

I can agree with this and a nanny state sounds like a horrible thing. It's not a governments role. It is however a government's role to act in the best of interest of a population. So where is the middle line ? In other words, do you think a government should one take a step back before the interests of multinationals ?

You know I agree with that from another discussion with you and you know what I meant both times. You damn well know that the stock market is weak and raising taxes on stocks is a very bad idea and you damn well know that a increase in corporate tax by the amount he wants is horrible idea. What's the deal with you playing dumb?

Why is the stock market weak in the first place ? It's a reflection of people's trust and how on earth do you expect people to give their trust after the huge mess of an iceberg that popped up at the end of the last year ?

Ok, it's a bad idea to touch stocks. On the other hand, are you prepared to let public spending money go if the finance people haven't learned their lesson and things don't clear up ?

No business I can think of runs their business on purpose low on people or for that manner high. Sometimes things happen and companies have to few or too many people or sometimes business just not enough people get hired for whatever reason. Companies that do it all the time are not the norm.

Look, I don't know how employees are treated in the US. For all I know, you've still got something to be proud off. I'm just saying that human beings as part of the business equation have less and less value.

Long-term contracts are turned into temp jobs because it's cheaper. Nobody cares about individual interests or people's future. Students who get a bachelor's sometimes have to wait more than a year to find a job, sometimes crying all the tears out of their body because noone wants them. And it's pretty pathetic to hear that there's a handful of people that have been unemployed for +30 years.

How many times do I have to tell you this...sigh. You are blowing the tax haven thing out of proportion and you damn well know that its only a minority of business men that can even do that and only a select few of those even do it. Realize you are talking about a very small group already.

Maybe you're right. That's still a lot of money disappearing into thin air and far more than anything the general public can muster. I won't mention it again except just by adding that's it more widespread than most people think. Bono of U2 does it :) .
 
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KaiserWarrior

Flyin' High
Aug 5, 2008
800
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Capitalism works because it takes into account human nature. People are naturally greedy and the reason you get into business and start selling a product is to make money. You don't get into making medicine for example because you want everyone to be healthy, you get into it to be rich. On the other hand the reason socialism fails is because it ignores human nature and needs everyone to play nice for it to work and that is just not realistic.

Capitalism fails because of human greed, just as Communism does. The Capitalist model takes human nature more into account than Communism, but it still makes the basic assumption that people won't **** each other over for gain. You get into medicine to be rich, but a capitalist that is beholden to no one releases a drug that turns out to have deadly side effects (see current US pharmaceuticals market). You don't make peanut butter because you think it's tasty and everyone should have some, you make it to get rich. A capitalist who doesn't have to answer to societal benefit sells salmonella-tainted peanut butter to avoid having to lose money throwing out a bad batch and scrubbing down his factories. Again, as I've said before -- the current economic collapse is a direct result of unchecked greed, nothing more and nothing less. The root cause was bad debt being sold to other debt-holders as good debt.

The pure ideal fails just as hard as pure communism. The correct system is either a basically capitalist system with social oversight, or a basically communist system with added incentive for productivity.

Larkin said:
No business I can think of runs their business on purpose low on people or for that manner high. Sometimes things happen and companies have to few or too many people or sometimes business just not enough people get hired for whatever reason. Companies that do it all the time are not the norm.

Just about every retail business either understaffs, or underworks (hires considerably more people than needed, then runs understaffed shifts so that no one worker hits full time and receives benefits). In the end, your local Kroger sells groceries regardless of how many people are running the lines, but by running less than full capacity they still move groceries while passing the 'savings' down to the customers in the form of considerable inconvenience. People have to eat, they have to buy food, and the grocery industry quite happily provides them less service than it could be to squeeze out more profit. Having worked at Kroger, and having a family member that still does, I can attest first-hand to the gross lack of safety precautions for workers, the understaffing, and various other underhanded labor/service practices (hours manipulation to, for example, work a three and three-quarters hour shift instead of four to avoid the break a four-hour shift earns) in the name of profit with no concern to the community's well-being. It happens, and it's quite normal.

Working now in a significantly better-paying industry, I'm a contractor. I've seen the company I'm currently on contract with lay off senior employees -- good, hard-working, dedicated individuals, not slackers -- and keep contractors like myself around. And it's a very simple reason: contractors are cheaper than employees because they don't require benefits and work hourly instead of salary. Forget ten+ years of company loyalty and good, quality work, take the contractors because they don't have any support attached.
 
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hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
21,409
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------->
www.beyondunreal.com
Our welfare system does pay for alot of things, like free healthcare, retirement and education, that i am free to use, but i am not forced by anyone to use thease things, if i want to and can afford it, i can pay for private schooling, or getting treated at a private Hospital, we also have many private pension companies, we have a private sector just as everyone else, and i can choose to pay for their services if i want to and it is within my means.

So you have elements of Socialism, but also a private market. It's not strictly socialist. I wasn't making the case for you using the capitalist system, just saying that it wouldn't work here and that I also didn't want it.

I understand how the theories work.

What is the objective of these patents ? To create more innovation ? To stimulate competition ? Or simply to lock out competitors ?

I do however think there is a problem in the way the management of some companies are hard pressed to make a maximum of profit. It totally undermines the activity whether it's making cheese, cars or whatever.

Again, I will mention the example of inBev who far from taking delight in anything still thinks it's ok to boost the prices of popular beverages.

The objective of patents are to protect your intellectual property. Let's say you invent a widget and it's superb... unlike any other before it. By patenting the process, or the widget itself, you are then able to reap the benefit. Of course, someone can come along and improve upon your widget and if it's unique enough they can claim a patent to that.

Without patents, anything you create can be copied at will by anyone else, thus seriously diminishing the value of your invention. You might say that it's a way to encourage better products.

The legal fighting tends to be around those products that are deemed too similar.
 

kiff

That guy from Texas. Give me some Cash
Jan 19, 2008
3,793
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Tx.
www.desert-conflict.org
Kiff, I think what you're saying though is that Americans are used to searching for the better deal for their hard earned dollar--in every aspect of life, whereas in socialist countries you can wait for the "free" handout and it may not be the best ever (be it healthcare or pension, etc) but to you it's all you have.
something like that. ;)
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
10,593
16
38
In a cave & grooving with a Pict
www.nsa.gov
The objective of patents are to protect your intellectual property. Let's say you invent a widget and it's superb... unlike any other before it. By patenting the process, or the widget itself, you are then able to reap the benefit. Of course, someone can come along and improve upon your widget and if it's unique enough they can claim a patent to that.

Without patents, anything you create can be copied at will by anyone else, thus seriously diminishing the value of your invention. You might say that it's a way to encourage better products.

The legal fighting tends to be around those products that are deemed too similar.

Have you heard of the practice of "Evergreening"?
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
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Disney has pretty much ensured that they never really need to do that.
 

hal

Dictator
Staff member
Nov 24, 1998
21,409
19
38
54
------->
www.beyondunreal.com
Have you heard of the practice of "Evergreening"?

Yes. Witness my backyard:

topiary_lngwd.lg.jpg
 

Larkin

Gone
Apr 4, 2006
1,984
0
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Have you heard of the practice of "Evergreening"?

I don't see a problem with that. Seems legal and a smart way to do it, really. The thing is why wait until someone can steal your product to renew your patient when you can renew the patient beforehand and avoid it. Obviously what they are doing is legal and above board. The only reason you have a problem with it is because it doesn't open the door and really why should another company open the door to the products for a competitor.
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
10,593
16
38
In a cave & grooving with a Pict
www.nsa.gov
I don't see a problem with that. Seems legal and a smart way to do it, really. The thing is why wait until someone can steal your product to renew your patient when you can renew the patient beforehand and avoid it. Obviously what they are doing is legal and above board. The only reason you have a problem with it is because it doesn't open the door and really why should another company open the door to the products for a competitor.

Only Congress can approve a patent renewal. Renewal is not what these greedy, immoral companies are doing.

This is what they do...

They have a patent on a life saving drug that they have held the monopoly on and profited from for nearly 20 years. Right before this patent expires they "reformulate" the drug (ie change the color of the pill), apply for a "revised" patent for another 20 years, then sit back and count their cash while people go bankrupt and/or die.

Companies doing this inflate health care cost for us all.

I'm all for them being able to patent a drug and profit from, and fiance, their research efforts. But "evergreening" is beyond the pale and hurts America.

Edit:

Imagine if you will that the inventor of the light bulb held a practically limitless patent on it. What do you think a light bulb would cost?

.
 
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Larkin

Gone
Apr 4, 2006
1,984
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Only Congress can approve a patent renewal. Renewal is not what these greedy, immoral companies are doing.

This is what they do...

They have a patent on a life saving drug that they have held the monopoly on and profited from for nearly 20 years. Right before this patent expires they "reformulate" the drug (ie change the color of the pill), apply for a "revised" patent for another 20 years, sit back and count their cash while people go bankrupt and/or die.

Companies doing this inflate health care cost for us all.

I'm all for them being able to patent a drug and fiance and profit from their research efforts. But "evergreening" is beyond the pale and hurts America.

That is legal even if you think it isn't. Again you have a problem with it why? Because people are dying? So what, sorry, but I don't care and neither should they. What do you guys think business should be like? Some good will service that isn't about profit and where everyone plays fair and is always moral? Business isn't about being fair or moral or allowing others to get access to their products. They developed the drug and changing the drug enough is all they are using to do this and that is legal even if you think it isn't. If the other companies want access to the product and the gains all they have to do is the same.
 

KaiserWarrior

Flyin' High
Aug 5, 2008
800
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So let me get this straight. You have the cure for cancer, which can prevent unheard of amounts of human suffering and save countless lives... but **** them if they can't pay whatever price you set?





That is precisely what is wrong with unfettered capitalism.
 

Lizard Of Oz

Demented Avenger
Oct 25, 1998
10,593
16
38
In a cave & grooving with a Pict
www.nsa.gov
That is legal even if you think it isn't. Again you have a problem with it why? Because people are dying? So what, sorry, but I don't care and neither should they. What do you guys think business should be like? Some good will service that isn't about profit and where everyone plays fair and is always moral? Business isn't about being fair or moral or allowing others to get access to their products. They developed the drug and changing the drug enough is all they are using to do this and that is legal even if you think it isn't. If the other companies want access to the product and the gains all they have to do is the same.

I never said or even implied it was illegal, I said it was immoral. The patent laws need o be updated to prevent this type of thing. Of course, with Congress being in the pocket of "Big Drugs", it'll never happen, and we will all continue to suffer.
 

KaiserWarrior

Flyin' High
Aug 5, 2008
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What do you mean exactly? It sounds more like a patent law issue, than a capitalism issue. Assuming, of course, the patent process is free from corruption.

The patent law issue is a symptom of the ideology powering it: That social benefit is irrelevant in the face of the one single goal of profit.

Not saying that they shouldn't be able to patent it for a limited amount of time so that they can benefit from their work for a specified amount of time after being the first to do it. But then it should expire and allow others to compete, lowering the cost of whatever the patented technology/idea is and bring its benefits to the masses more easily, and improve the human condition. And this is how it is supposed to work anyway. But again, the patent law isn't what I'm balking at, it's the notion being expressed that societal benefit means nothing and that they should well be able to patent it indefinitely.

Put another way: a pure capitalist is concerned with nothing more than increasing their wealth, society be damned. That capitalist will die at some point, and his wealth will become entirely meaningless. Society, however, will outlive him, and to have denied society as a whole the benefits, now and for as long as it lasts, of whatever this capitalist came up with so that he could accrue more of his ultimately meaningless wealth is a crime (morally speaking).
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
11,708
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The objective of patents are to protect your intellectual property. Let's say you invent a widget and it's superb... unlike any other before it. By patenting the process, or the widget itself, you are then able to reap the benefit. Of course, someone can come along and improve upon your widget and if it's unique enough they can claim a patent to that.

Without patents, anything you create can be copied at will by anyone else, thus seriously diminishing the value of your invention. You might say that it's a way to encourage better products.

The legal fighting tends to be around those products that are deemed too similar.

That's how they're supposed to work.

It's when you see a law firm buy patents with very broad applications that you get into facepalm country.

Plus, replace that law firm with a multinational and you have a nasty picture for the future where competition doesn't have a chance.

The patenting system admittedly needs a overhaul.

Taken from BeyondUnreal :

"Video Game Developers Dance the Line of Patent Infringement"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=156556

"Microsoft applies for "adaptive agents" patent in video games"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=166838

"Microsoft attempts to patent Numbers in a Box..."
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=162800

"Nintendo Patents Online Console Gaming"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=143265

"3D Lawsuit Names Top Publishers"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=148705

"BT claims ownership of hyperlinks"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=7977

"Microsoft 'patents human skin'"
http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=139180

P.S: Where has W0RF disappeared to :p ?
 

Neddaf

Just a flesh wound!
Jul 19, 2001
1,442
4
38
Los Angeles, California
So let me get this straight. You have the cure for cancer, which can prevent unheard of amounts of human suffering and save countless lives... but **** them if they can't pay whatever price you set?





That is precisely what is wrong with unfettered capitalism.

Yeah but we all know that a cure for cancer would cause the zombie apocalypse so that would never happen.
 

Sir_Brizz

Administrator
Staff member
Feb 3, 2000
26,020
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But really, come on guys. This isn't a problem with Capitalism, this is a problem with government getting involved in the free market with something like patents and leaving antiquated laws in place instead of moving to the 21st century.
 
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