StarCraft II

[[VaLkyR]Anubis]

I think the last RTS I played was the original Command and Conquer (unless Lords of Magic counts as one). I'd probably be bad at this.

Nah, don't say this stuff, you still can try it! It's a fabulous game and makes a lot of fun. Go ahead and try it! You won't regret it!

And don't start to think you are bad in RTS games, just because you haven't played many games of them or that often!

 

[Juggalo Kyle]

I did another cast for a 1v1 match. This one's between Drewbie and Huk. After watching the match, I feel like this match was planned, but it's funny never the less. Never have seen a strat like this, which is why I think it was staged.

[M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxrUhpyM_Ag[/M]

 

[SleepyHe4d]

Uhh, it says Burning Steppes in your description, don't you mean Steppes of War?



You know you play too much WoW when...

>.>

 

[DarQraven]

Yes, I know I made a **** load of mistakes, but I honestly wasn't trying too hard to macro and micro at a certain point because I had map control and he just had his main with no minerals left.

I realize I could have done **** better with the overseers and DT's, but at that point I was pretty bleh and I didn't think they would do that much.

Also, toward the end when I dedicated to finishing him off I just threw all my attention and trying to play out the window, I honestly didn't think he would be able to kill all my bases by that time. I also thought I told a couple drones to make more hatches in places. That single DT killed my couple bases way too fast though, wasn't expecting that.

So how exactly is all this Blizzard's fault for making a ****ty game?
Sounds like "I survived cheese, came back but forgot to scout and macro. This game sucks."

Not that I haven't been in the same situation, but blaming the game will only stop your progression.
Rule of thumb: If you stopped Protoss cheese: DT's. Every single time.

 

[Juggalo Kyle]

Uhh, it says Burning Steppes in your description, don't you mean Steppes of War?



You know you play too much WoW when...

>.>

Doh! Let's see if anybody else can catch on.

 

[SleepyHe4d]

So how exactly is all this Blizzard's fault for making a ****ty game?
Sounds like "I survived cheese, came back but forgot to scout and macro. This game sucks."

Not that I haven't been in the same situation, but blaming the game will only stop your progression.

Because you shouldn't have to memorize what to do to be successful in a bunch of random scenarios in order to not lose instantly to something. That's not skill or strategy, that's just tedious and not fun.

They could easily design the gameplay to remove a bunch of these skillless scenarios and make it a lot more fun and focused on strategy and skill. That's how it's their fault for making a ****ty game.

Oh and btw my critiques have nothing to do with the actual game loss. That isn't 'forgot to scout and macro', that was just me being careless at that point in the game. I left my base completely undefended to finish off his because I wanted to end it already and didn't think he would be able to finish my bases. Also, like I said I thought I sent drones out to make hatcheries, but I guess not. One stupid little mishap and I lose a game that I most obviously deserved to win.

 

[DarQraven]

Because you shouldn't have to memorize what to do to be successful in a bunch of random scenarios in order to not lose instantly to something. That's not skill or strategy, that's just tedious and not fun.

They could easily design the gameplay to remove a bunch of these skillless scenarios and make it a lot more fun and focused on strategy and skill. That's how it's their fault for making a ****ty game.

Oh and btw my critiques have nothing to do with the actual game loss. That isn't 'forgot to scout and macro', that was just me being careless at that point in the game. I left my base completely undefended to finish off his because I wanted to end it already and didn't think he would be able to finish my bases. Also, like I said I thought I sent drones out to make hatcheries, but I guess not. One stupid little mishap and I lose a game that I most obviously deserved to win.

Failing to build hatcheries when you have the opportunity and need them is not one stupid little mishap. It's failing to keep up in one of the three fundamental elements of RTS: economy, army and tech. Blame it on not paying attention or being careless as much as you want, that is how you lose. You haven't won until the other guy GG's and leaves.

Those skill-less and tedious strategies are what keeps a strategy game from being "30 minutes no rush plz" turtlefests.
Imagine, if there was no opportunity for cheesy rushes or all-ins, what would you be doing during the first 12 minutes of the game? Babysitting your Hatcheries and massing a gazillion Hydralisks?
I know if I were completely secure for the first 8 minutes of the game, I would fast expand every single match. Probably followed by forge, cannons and direct tech to Carriers and HT.
Scouting and being prepared for cheese IS strategy. Who ever decided that only massing huge armies and building the right counter are strategy?

Go for gate->core->gate for a tech advantage? Fine, but you'll be more susceptible to gate->gate openings or similar. Scout appropriately and if your build is incapable of adjusting, you've got a bad build on your hands.
Keep all workers on minerals at all times for higher income? Fine, but you won't find that proxy 2rax outside your base if you do.

That aside, I think you're exaggerating how bad cheese is. I'm only in 9th Silver (soon to be gold, because this stuff is just easy), and I could probably draw you up a flowchart for scouting that eliminates 90% of all cheeses.
Scout own base quickly at 9, send to enemy base. Make sure it passes by common proxy locations. Scout around own base and ramp again at 12 or earlier if you've got the multitasking for it. Done. You have now eliminated any common cheese build. Anything else can be derived from your scouting information.
Zerg with a ton of speedlings, evo chamber and lair? Most probably a nydus rush. Protoss with 1 gate, core and no army to speak of? Probably proxy voids. Etc.
Doesn't mean that I don't occasionally fall for it, but it's not like you need to practice for two hours a day just to keep your anti-cheese up to scratch. If anything, memorizing the responses to cheese is FAR easier than playing a good macro game. Key is to just not get supplycapped and don't just run your scout around their base looking at the scenery.

Just yesterday I played PvP on Scrap Station. Knowing the wide ramp, I sent my 9Pylon scout around my base first before scouting their base. Caught a probe in a corner trying to build a pylon, killed it. Proceeded to go into the game with a 1gateway lead right from the start. It's not some sort of esoteric science.

 

[SleepyHe4d]

Failing to build hatcheries when you have the opportunity and need them is not one stupid little mishap. It's failing to keep up in one of the three fundamental elements of RTS: economy, army and tech. Blame it on not paying attention or being careless as much as you want, that is how you lose.

Funny enough, building a hatch doesn't fit into any of those categories and isn't something I should have to pay attention to when I have the game won and have a superior army. In real life you don't lose a war when your command tent gets blown up when you have 50 soldiers and they have 2. Yes I realize that's a silly comparison since this is just a video game, but still it should be that way for the sake of gameplay.

Those skill-less and tedious strategies are what keeps a strategy game from being "30 minutes no rush plz" turtlefests.

Not at all, in fact fixing it would not only remove unfun elements from the game, but would also speed up the beginning macro period.

That aside, I think you're exaggerating how bad cheese is. I'm only in 9th Silver (soon to be gold, because this stuff is just easy), and I could probably draw you up a flowchart for scouting that eliminates 90% of all cheeses.
Scout own base quickly at 9, send to enemy base. Make sure it passes by common proxy locations. Scout around own base and ramp again at 12 or earlier if you've got the multitasking for it. Done. You have now eliminated any common cheese build. Anything else can be derived from your scouting information.
Zerg with a ton of speedlings, evo chamber and lair? Most probably a nydus rush. Protoss with 1 gate, core and no army to speak of? Probably proxy voids. Etc.
Doesn't mean that I don't occasionally fall for it, but it's not like you need to practice for two hours a day just to keep your anti-cheese up to scratch. If anything, memorizing the responses to cheese is FAR easier than playing a good macro game. Key is to just not get supplycapped and don't just run your scout around their base looking at the scenery.

Just yesterday I played PvP on Scrap Station. Knowing the wide ramp, I sent my 9Pylon scout around my base first before scouting their base. Caught a probe in a corner trying to build a pylon, killed it. Proceeded to go into the game with a 1gateway lead right from the start. It's not some sort of esoteric science.

I don't think it's an exaggeration when it happens every few games. In a game like this, when you have to dedicate so much time into each round, every one of them counts. I'm Platinum and I know how to scout plenty, you don't need a flowchart, you just scout or you don't. I didn't scout my base as I was zerg and a cannon rush on them was completely unexpected to me. Hell, even scouting the enemy is unnecessary for zerg, but I did it anyways.

Scouting is only half of it though, you also have to respond, and doing that correctly is not always easy or clear. One of my matches I was Terran and the other guy was Toss. I saw his probe come into my base and I followed him. He made a pylon, so I went to attack with my SCVs, but then he made another, and after that a Gateway. There wasn't much my SCVs could do, just chase after the probe stupidly or try to kill the buildings, which is futile since he would just keep making pylons.

Yes, after the match was over I realized I could have easily make a quick barracks and bunker by my CC and take care of that problem, but this is my whole point. I shouldn't have to have some stupid laid out knowledge like that memorized for some lame ass tactic of which the results seem like they're out of some children's cartoon more than out of a war game.


All this typing and arguing against your points is also futile though, as the game is how it is and I either have to deal with it or quit, whether I keep complaining or not, cause we all know Blizz isn't gonna change ****.

 

[Kantham]

I did another cast for a 1v1 match...

He had his Mothership at 7:02. I knew exactly what was going to happen when he drove his MS all the way around into Drewbie's main. He wouldn't have won that push and let alone the game if it wasn't for those probes in Drewbie's main.

You really need to have in-game audio on, and your computer doesn't seem to like your idea of using it for casting.

 

[Rambowjo]

Funny enough, building a hatch doesn't fit into any of those categories and isn't something I should have to pay attention to when I have the game won and have a superior army. In real life you don't lose a war when your command tent gets blown up when you have 50 soldiers and they have 2. Yes I realize that's a silly comparison since this is just a video game, but still it should be that way for the sake of gameplay.

Have fun tracking down all of the 100 burrowed zerglings placed everywhere around the map, simply because your opponent refuses to leave.

Not at all, in fact fixing it would not only remove unfun elements from the game, but would also speed up the beginning macro period.

It would also cut away 1/3 of what actually makes this game, ie. the risk of early one base pushes (not cheeses).

I don't think it's an exaggeration when it happens every few games. In a game like this, when you have to dedicate so much time into each round, every one of them counts. I'm Platinum and I know how to scout plenty, you don't need a flowchart, you just scout or you don't. I didn't scout my base as I was zerg and a cannon rush on them was completely unexpected to me. Hell, even scouting the enemy is unnecessary for zerg, but I did it anyways.

Maybe if you weren't a scrub in wood league, you wouldn't constantly get raped by cheese . You should always scout, no matter what. A proxy 2 gate will **** you up if you don't scout it. A 4 gate push will **** you up if you don't scout it. The list goes on, proxy stargate, cannon bombing, DTs etc. etc.

Scouting is only half of it though, you also have to respond, and doing that correctly is not always easy or clear. One of my matches I was Terran and the other guy was Toss. I saw his probe come into my base and I followed him. He made a pylon, so I went to attack with my SCVs, but then he made another, and after that a Gateway. There wasn't much my SCVs could do, just chase after the probe stupidly or try to kill the buildings, which is futile since he would just keep making pylons.

Yes, after the match was over I realized I could have easily make a quick barracks and bunker by my CC and take care of that problem, but this is my whole point. I shouldn't have to have some stupid laid out knowledge like that memorized for some lame ass tactic of which the results seem like they're out of some children's cartoon more than out of a war game.

Building a bunker is not rocket science. Every cheese is incredibly simple to respond to and if you're unable to comprehend the correct responses, then you really should just stop playing StarCraft II, I suppose. I'm surprised you're in platinum tbh.

All this typing and arguing against your points is also futile though, as the game is how it is and I either have to deal with it or quit, whether I keep complaining or not, cause we all know Blizz isn't gonna change ****.

The game is perfect, you're just a terrible player who wants 50 minute long turtlefests every damn game. Go play the novice maps with destructible rocks (stops cheese) and see if anybody wants to join you.

 

[DarQraven]

Scouting is only half of it though, you also have to respond, and doing that correctly is not always easy or clear.

Well, there's where your beloved strategy comes in. If reacting on the spot isn't part of your repertoire, and memorizing the correct responses isn't either, exactly how do you play this game?

Also, what the hell. Scouting isn't necessary for Zerg? They are the most reacting-style race of all three AND have a weak early game. Out of the three races, Zerg is by far the most focused on building *just* the right amount of units to defend while macroing like crazy. How you plan to do that without scouting is beyond me.

One of my matches I was Terran and the other guy was Toss. I saw his probe come into my base and I followed him. He made a pylon, so I went to attack with my SCVs, but then he made another, and after that a Gateway. There wasn't much my SCVs could do, just chase after the probe stupidly or try to kill the buildings, which is futile since he would just keep making pylons.

Terran. Liftoff.
Plant base in safer location or even in his natural. Proceed to rape opponent's undefended base. This works assuming that he executed this proxy before you could have a barracks finished - his economic disadvantage for 10gating and all those pylons is WAY larger than yours is for lifting off and having a few SCV's off minerals.

If he did it at a regular timing, you simply have no excuse for not having a marine out to kill the probe. Problem solved.
This is not a prebuilt response, btw. I don't play Terran and haven't exactly been studying how to defend cheese with them. It's common sense.

I really don't understand what your point is here. Blizzard screwed up by making a game in which mistakes make you lose?
Why is it acceptable to lose to mistakes in the mid/lategame, but not in the early game? Given that you're not a fan of memorizing correct responses, how do you counter midgame pushes? How do you counter lategame army compositions?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of longer macro matches and depending on the matchup and situation I either enjoy them as much or more than short micro/rush battles. Completely eliminating short-terms strategies is just dumb, though.

edit: Was browsing posts from way back, and would like to give credit where credit's due.
June 9th

Interjection: when is SC2 out???!!!

Later this year apparently.


So probably next summer.

 

[Juggalo Kyle]

You really need to have in-game audio on, and your computer doesn't seem to like your idea of using it for casting.

I would love to, but lame ass Fraps doesn't want to use any other audio than my Mic.

 

[SleepyHe4d]

Maybe if you weren't a scrub in wood league, you wouldn't constantly get raped by cheese . You should always scout, no matter what. A proxy 2 gate will **** you up if you don't scout it. A 4 gate push will **** you up if you don't scout it. The list goes on, proxy stargate, cannon bombing, DTs etc. etc.

Building a bunker is not rocket science. Every cheese is incredibly simple to respond to and if you're unable to comprehend the correct responses, then you really should just stop playing StarCraft II, I suppose. I'm surprised you're in platinum tbh.

The game is perfect, you're just a terrible player who wants 50 minute long turtlefests every damn game. Go play the novice maps with destructible rocks (stops cheese) and see if anybody wants to join you.

ROFL, you just sound like an elitist fanboi. Cry moar about your precious "perfect" game just like Halo fanbois do when anyone proves to them that ANY pc FPS is superior competitively.

You haven't given any true counter arguments to what I've said, just crying about your game. What does scrub in wood league even mean? What the hell? Seriously you probably act like the guy I played against and cheese too, no wonder why you're so offended when I suggest removing it, and I'd probably wipe the floor with you too.

Edit: There's no excuse for you to act like that either, even if the reason was that I 'suck', that just proves that this is a problem for the game if I'm being annoyed with it up in platinum. If that's the case, then I'm sure it's taking the fun out of a bunch of matches for plenty of other people too, and that's not a good thing.

I like how you assume a lot of stuff too. I can take care of plenty of cheese most of the time, but it's still annoying and when I run into a new cheese it is hard to know what to do or you panic, or at least it's too late by that time. That doesn't mean I lose to cheese most the time or even a little of the time, it just pisses me off that it's a part of the game that doesn't really need to be there at all. In fact, obviously I'm fully capable of handling cheese as that game shows, I just posted it because it pissed me off that I let that guy win at the end.

 

[Kantham]

I would love to, but lame ass Fraps doesn't want to use any other audio than my Mic.

It's the way Windows have it configured. Fraps will just detect the devices Windows has in store. You might want to check for your onboard/audio card drivers and try to get a hold on local output audio. Creative calls it "What U Hear" and it's really quite problematic using Windows 7 depending on your hardware.

I had a **** ton of issues with my older Creative Sound Blaster, and had to stick with Realtek on-board audio to be able to record what my PC outputs.

 

[Rambowjo]

ROFL, you just sound like an elitist fanboi. Cry moar about your precious "perfect" game just like Halo fanbois do when anyone proves to them that ANY pc FPS is superior competitively.

You haven't given any true counter arguments to what I've said, just crying about your game. What does scrub in wood league even mean? What the hell? Seriously you probably act like the guy I played against and cheese too, no wonder why you're so offended when I suggest removing it, and I'd probably wipe the floor with you too.

I never cheese in 1v1. The reason I'm crying is because it's somewhat obvious you're just mad you lost because you made a mistake. I'm not saying that cheese is a good thing, but other things like an early 3 rax push is a legit strategy and removing such strategies will basically remove the first 10 minutes of the game. You might aswell just spawn with tier 2 tech. I think Dawn of War actually does that.

REMEJD-TREW-4TF72C-7RVJ-BVXNX6 - trial account on europe b.net
Rambowjo.536
Let's go

 

[Juggalo Kyle]

It's the way Windows have it configured. Fraps will just detect the devices Windows has in store. You might want to check for your onboard/audio card drivers and try to get a hold on local output audio. Creative calls it "What U Hear" and it's really quite problematic using Windows 7 depending on your hardware.

I had a **** ton of issues with my older Creative Sound Blaster, and had to stick with Realtek on-board audio to be able to record what my PC outputs.

Yeah, I'm running on XP using a Realtek HD card. I can switch the audio from mic to line in or CD, but those don't help in this case. Maybe I'll see if I can't have Sonar 6 (which is what I use to record my voice) pick it up. Doubt it though.

I tried another video capture program, but it was locked at 15fps unless I payed 30 bucks. We'll see if I can't find anything else.

It is pretty weird though. I used Fraps when I had the Win 7 Beta installed, and it worked fine, sound and all. Maybe I'll give it a reinstall and see if it likes me better the second time around.

 

[SleepyHe4d]

I never cheese in 1v1. The reason I'm crying is because it's somewhat obvious you're just mad you lost because you made a mistake. I'm not saying that cheese is a good thing, but other things like an early 3 rax push is a legit strategy and removing such strategies will basically remove the first 10 minutes of the game. You might aswell just spawn with tier 2 tech. I think Dawn of War actually does that.

REMEJD-TREW-4TF72C-7RVJ-BVXNX6 - trial account on europe b.net
Rambowjo.536
Let's go

Yes, that's exactly why I'm mad. I just posted that.

Here's the edit if you missed it:

Edit: There's no excuse for you to act like that either, even if the reason was that I 'suck', that just proves that this is a problem for the game if I'm being annoyed with it up in platinum. If that's the case, then I'm sure it's taking the fun out of a bunch of matches for plenty of other people too, and that's not a good thing.

I like how you assume a lot of stuff too. I can take care of plenty of cheese most of the time, but it's still annoying and when I run into a new cheese it is hard to know what to do or you panic, or at least it's too late by that time. That doesn't mean I lose to cheese most the time or even a little of the time, it just pisses me off that it's a part of the game that doesn't really need to be there at all. In fact, obviously I'm fully capable of handling cheese as that game shows, I just posted it because it pissed me off that I let that guy win at the end.

I haven't tried DoW, but people say it's a good game, so it must not be bad to have that system. Also, I probably will set up that account to play you, might as well and hopefully it will be enjoyable. Especially to see if all your damn talk is up to par. How about you show some replays of you losing so everyone else can crit you? -.-

 

[Rambowjo]

I see. My point is that the game would need to be so drastically changed, in order to stop cheese from happening. In the novice maps they have destructible rocks, but I think that's lame really and it doesn't stop void ray rushes, which are also a kind of cheese.

edit: we all have games where we lose because we make stupid mistakes. Posting them up seems pointless. I thought the replay you posted was your standard level of play. I can post up some games where I simply lose because people are better than me, if you want.

 

[Kantham]

That's insane!

Beta. That's way before nerf. So is this video..

[M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wucEINuw5gg[/M]

 

[Rambowjo]

To be fair, an ultra with 5/3 can still kill a very very large amount of zerglings.