Shield Time Pwnt?!?! W!T?F! Is there no end?

[JaFO]

... it's also about retaining some old school DM properties. DM is DM. If they are going to call it that, it needs to be that.
...

There's nothing more 'old school' then merely killing people for points.
CTF still is CTF even though some games introduce classes into the mix.
So why does DM need the classic-style 'powerups' ?

Definately the random spawning though, would not go over well with the "pro's."
The don't like random.

So why hasn't anyone changed the player-spawn system into something a little less random ?
Why are maps illogical and random structures ? Instead of the pure abstract logical layouts used in 'real' sport-games ?

 

[ShakeZula]

How about a shield powerup where the amount of armor it gives you (when you pick it up) is constantly going up by 5 points every five seconds (lets say to a max of 50 points), and when you pick it up; the armor it gives goes back to 0, starting all over again. You can only pick up the shield when the amount it has stored is at least 25 or so.

And if that doesn't work, it would still be fun as a mutator IMO.

I don't get this exactly. Do you mean that the shield would always stay spawned in the same place, constantly raising in value (to a max) and "picking up" would instantly transfer the value to the player as armor, resetting the shield which starts again?

I dunno if that's what you meant, but it could be really cool . If the value raised constantly then timing would still be a factor, but once you arrived at the shield you would have to decide whether to take it straight away (for say, 50a) or defend the area until it reached 100a, or something... I dunno, I'm not sure how well that would work but it sounds okay. Wouldn't really solve SOLAR's problem, though .

 

[Turret 49]

I don't get this exactly. Do you mean that the shield would always stay spawned in the same place, constantly raising in value (to a max) and "picking up" would instantly transfer the value to the player as armor, resetting the shield which starts again?

Yes, only it has to be over a certain number for you to pick it up. (to stop people sitting on it)

 

[ShakeZula]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said that timing would still be a factor, because there'd be a set amount of time after someone made a pickup before it got back up to whatever the minimum value for pickup is.

I don't know if I'd prefer this to the normal system but I'd definitely like to try it out.

 

[Neophoenix]

Not a bad idea. But instead of having to wait for it to charge over X amount to pick it up. What if you had 50 and 100 armor, but when you picked it up it starts charging from half the value, up to the max of the shield amount? And if you got damaged in the process it would subtract from the total charge amount that you could accrue from that armor.

The only problem that it might create is a more defensive, instead of offensive play.

Another idea could be a charge platform for 50 and 100 armor and 100 health, in which you have to stand on it for X amount of time to get the full amount. If a player dies or leaves before it is fully drained, someone else can take the rest. Also, once fully drained, it would not recharge completely for 30 sec to 1 min. and could not be used during charge times.

That one would create more offensive play I would think.

Also like 2k4 you could not stack 3 50’s to get 150 armor, however you should not be able to stack two 100’s to get 150 either. It is suppose to be upper and lower armor, so neither should be able to compensate for the lack of the other.

 

[ShakeZula]

Another idea could be a charge platform for 50 and 100 armor and 100 health, in which you have to stand on it for X amount of time to get the full amount. If a player dies or leaves before it is fully drained, someone else can take the rest. Also, once fully drained, it would not recharge completely for 30 sec to 1 min. and could not be used during charge times.

Am I right in saying that something similar featured in Quake 3? I'm sure I remember it, and I think it was pretty cool. Having to stand still on a platform puts you at quite a serious disadvantage, though.

We've seriously deviated from the original topic, as none of these systems get rid of timing .

 

[Neophoenix]

Not sure about Quake, never played it. HL had something similar, except it was a wall mount that never recharged.

I think it's near impossible to get rid of timing, just change the way the timing is set up.

Though they definitely need to get rid of the clock. That thing is way to easy to use. If they didn't have the clock, it would require more skill in knowing when to go to a power up location.

 

[HardcorexxX]

Removing power-up timings.......no thanks. That's why there's TAM, which is a great free frag and crotch shot style game type. IMO Tam is a great gametype for your average UT player who doesnt spend 5 hours learning every trick jump on a map, or sit around at work saying in thier head 6:37, then while they are working, subtracting 1:22 just so they can get more natural at timing while playing.

There was an excellent point made about the epic battles that go on over power-ups. There were some cool ideas mentioned in this thread about different ways to handle power ups, but no original ones, we've all played the games ( I have at least) that handle power ups in these affore mentioned ways. They suck.

DM is the pro-unrealers game type of choice b/c you have to be able to out gun your opponents (not just out wait them IE TAM). Even if you're one of those guys who's all about the standing LG crotch shots, standing corner combos, and crouched shield gun ambushes, you still have to be able to chase and kill in DM b/c the other guy (unlike tam) can just run and recharge.

The reason someone is professional at something, is because they can not only handle the job, they can acomplish it barring all outside influence. I completely understand where you're coming from saying "I hate timing things it's stupid", "If I know the power up is coming then its dumb cause everyone will jsut meet there" ...but these are all comments of fun, not of pro unreal playing.

It's one thing to be able to run and gun, its another to have great team tactics and coordination. But it's the ability to be able to coordinate attacks in a Random DM map, while out gunning the other team, ontop of keeping track of the clock and counting damage, that makes someone a prounrealer.

This is easily demonstrated -- play some DM (and acctualy control the power ups, not jsut 100a, amp etc, but the health packs or anything, it will make you a better unreal player across the board.)

How many gametypes in unreal dont involve timing power-ups.....????

ONS, Assault, CTF, TDM, DM -- Being able to time things makes you a better player at all of these things, not only that but it keeps you on track and acctualy makes the game less boring IMO cause it gives you something to be doing, ontop of killing people.

I fall asleep in tam matches now. Sure its fun to fight people striaght up, in a controlled enviroment ala TAM, but its a different style of game play, Throw netcode into the mix and its pretty hard to compare a tam player to a tdm player.

All I can say is this, throw a TAM player into any real gametype in unreal then throw a TDM player in, I don't think there's an argument about which one will out perform the other.

Having power ups spawn in a predictable way plays right into the most oldschool rule of combat at all, and one that the unreal seriers has done so well to keep, "If I know where you're gunna be, then I can counter", and like wise if you know someone's going to try to counter it, you have to out counter them. Its the predicatability that brings out the real ski9ll of player, out gunning and most importantly out thinking each other.

If you play unreal without thinking, you're not playing the game, you're just getting pwnt

 

[JaFO]

DM is the pro-unrealers game type of choice b/c you have to be able to out gun your opponents (not just out wait them IE TAM).

so how is waiting for an opponent any different from waiting for a pickup ?

Besides ... this game is not aimed at and should never be aimed at 'professional' players.
It is supposed to be fun. I'd even say that as soon as games start being about 'professional' players they cease to be fun to play.

I'd argue that defeating an opponent while at 50 Health with nothing single weapon takes a hell of a lot more skill than doing the same while carrying an entire armoury full of weapons.

Its the predicatability that brings out the real ski9ll of player

yet someone who is extremely predictable is pretty much cannon-fodder.
Being unpredictable is the #1 survival-skill in DM.

 

[ShakeZula]

I think he meant the ability to predict, not being predictable

 

[HardcorexxX]

Jafo please try and take what I said in the context it was said


Firstly, waiting for a person to come around the corner is nothing like waiting for a timed pick up...you're not aiming at the pick-up or trying to kill it, You KNOW that the pick up will be there and its not going to jump at you from around the corner, AND HERE"s THE IMPORTANT PART: You're timing the pick-up ONTOP of killing the guy thats going to be coming around the corner. THATS THE DIFFERANCE (caps are jsut for easy reading not to be rude).

Secondly there are about 10 or so different game modes in UT, and UT is very much geared towards professional play, there is a very large community centered around pure ladder and competition play. DM is the most true version of UT b/c it combines elements of all game types and puts them into a frag fest.

You can really sum it all up like this: TAM removes gameplay elements and simplifies your objectives while playing the game. Where as TDM adds in elements of gameplay and complicates matter ontop of retaining the main objective in the game: fragging.

If you're playing tam you can select the best gun for the situation, in TDM if you arent picking up power-ups and weapons you cannot do this.

Secondly DM is by far the most fun gametype IMO b/c you're playing against the most intense and unforgiving players in unreal, they are easily the most talanted players in unreal.

There will always be a gap between TAM and TDM primarily for 2 reason

1. Defense wins TAM -- Power-ups win TDM
2. TAM is not netcode enabled TDM is


The sooner people stop trying to draw lines of association between the 2 the sooner we can all move on

IMO saying TDM and TAM are alike simply b/c they involve fragging is flawed, thats like saying Onslaught and Assault are the same gametype just AS has less vehicles and isnt as "fun" oriented


Perosnaly I think removing the clock entirly would be hawt! The power-up timings are already not exact, IE : 82.5 seconds on the DD(which I know is still not even exact)


I like the timings of the power ups, there are TONS of different mods in this game to keep it fun and not requiring you to time the clock.

Epic already tried to adress this situation: They came up with adren, ill let you figure out how that one went

 

[-AEnubis-]

@jafo: DM spawning isn't random, and DM isn't about fragging. I know "what you mean" about spawning, but that's the only way it works with the current mapping scheme, and that mapping scheme is what makes it fun. Especially in UT.

Barring players on the WCG level, most of the time, players will be good at what they practice. Just because a team of the TOP TDMers won that tourney, doesn't mean any TDMer can own it up in a TAM pub. The team that placed third, and could have easily beaten the second place team, was a team of TAM players.

Fack, how do I get sucked into these... I swear I don't start them.

I do agree with you though, that DM should be left alone mostly. I don't, however, agree that any mode of play should not be about fun.

 

[stas]

Eum we should keep it as it is...thats nubish saying that dm is powerup timing if u cant get them because ur opponent is defending the spot just go play ons or sumthing else dm is most skill required gametype.

Also like 2k4 you could not stack 3 50’s to get 150 armor, however you should not be able to stack two 100’s to get 150 either. It is suppose to be upper and lower armor, so neither should be able to compensate for the lack of the other.

No, in ut99 it was armor and we could understand that if u have leg pads and u get shot in chest it wont help much but here its a shield and suposed to protect entire body so u could stack them.

 

[xiller]

Maybe power up's could respawn at a base time plus or minus up to 5 seconds. This would mean it is not completely random but could through out some peoples routes around maps.

 

[Slainchild]

Maybe power up's could respawn at a base time plus or minus up to 5 seconds. This would mean it is not completely random but could through out some peoples routes around maps.

Wouldn't make any difference because you should be there 5-10 seconds before it spawns anyway.

 

[JaFO]

Jafo please try and take what I said in the context it was said

Firstly, waiting for a person to come around the corner is nothing like waiting for a timed pick up...you're not aiming at the pick-up or trying to kill it, You KNOW that the pick up will be there and its not going to jump at you from around the corner, AND HERE"s THE IMPORTANT PART: You're timing the pick-up ONTOP of killing the guy thats going to be coming around the corner. THATS THE DIFFERANCE (caps are jsut for easy reading not to be rude).

Which makes you predictable ... because the other guy will know (or at least assume) you're waiting for him.
What that does is in fact limit the places of conflict to the powerups instead of extending it to the entire map. In fact I'm sure you could get the same effect with mere environmental effects (like death-traps in classic UT)

Secondly there are about 10 or so different game modes in UT, and UT is very much geared towards professional play,

'professional' ? ... sorry but there's a bigger 'pro' darts-community out there. And neither is big enough for anyone to consider it a career-path (except the very very few).

there is a very large community centered around pure ladder and competition play. DM is the most true version of UT b/c it combines elements of all game types and puts them into a frag fest.

That would make ONS the most true version since it adds even more strategy ontop of that.

...
If you're playing tam you can select the best gun for the situation, in TDM if you arent picking up power-ups and weapons you cannot do this.

You're forced to get the best results with limited options ... which as I said is a considerable skill as well. Only the best players can survive under those circumstances (unless they're playing against cannon-fodder)

Secondly DM is by far the most fun gametype IMO b/c you're playing against the most intense and unforgiving players in unreal, they are easily the most talanted players in unreal.

Excuse me if I laugh. They'd be most talented at playing DM and only on those maps they've practiced on ... place them in a different environment and they will get 'pwned' as you'd say.

There will always be a gap between TAM and TDM primarily for 2 reason

nope, there's a gap because they require a different strategy to be succesful.
Netcode has nothing to do with either since that's the easiest to compensate for if you're any good at playing internet-based games ... (lag exists and can't be eliminated, unless someone invents time-travel)

Perosnaly I think removing the clock entirly would be hawt! The power-up timings are already not exact, IE : 82.5 seconds on the DD(which I know is still not even exact)

Removing of the clock will only work if all the clocks in the entire world are removed.
There's nothing stopping anyone from using an external timer.
In fact the reason for adding the clock was because people had started cheating with external timers ...

Epic already tried to adress this situation: They came up with adren, ill let you figure out how that one went

It went well ... the only reason it may not have been as fun/good as it could have been was that 'classic' powerups were still available, the availability of the pills on maps didn't match and there was this ridiculous need to 'balance' it for the loser ...
I still think that adrenaline-based powerups like relics are great ideas that can improve DM and make it something new & fresh.

 

[HardcorexxX]

If you want to go back and forth all day, I can simply say, there's multiple hallways to most places on a UT map, many way to get from A to B. Just because there's a power up about to spawn, doesnt mean you're going to be standing on it, secondly the person holding up at the power up will always have the advantage because of the defensive nature of ut


You're still missing the point it seems. But I do agree with your last comment, that adren was ruined mainly b/c of the old power-ups.

The game you're looking for is RUNE:HOV sweet mod for the orignal ut99.


And you don't have to choose ut as a career path to be a professional player. The word as with any is always up to interpratation, I defined what I meant when I used the word. Plz take my posts in the context in which things are said.

And I didn't take ONS into account as it includes vehicles.....

Finaly, why did you try and call me out on netcode...it makes a very large differance when aiming and moving I didnt say better or anything just different. And, why quote me then repeate me? I stated that TAM is a defensivly natured gametype where as TDM is more about map control and power ups. Which require different stratagies as you were so kind to parrot.

(that's what im saying about out of context you can't jsut read a sentence and disagree with the wording, and not take into account the rest of what was said)

 

[Bullet10k]

Solutions:

1. How about 2 or 3 50a's that add up to 150? Or 2 or 3 50a's that add up to 100 max?

2. How about remove the armor and keep the amp and vials (which would still allow aggressiveness)? Or only vials and no amp? Or vials and an amp that is based on damage remaining instead of 30 secs to encourage fighting the amper instead of coming back after 30 secs (no cat and mouse).

 

[HardcorexxX]

I think the armor is all good, but does it really need to be made more powerful by the current damage scaling that's implemented?

I think thats the real problem if it were not for armor scaleing the 100a wouldnt be nearly as powerful and thus less important to control

 

[ShakeZula]

an amp that is based on damage remaining instead of 30 secs to encourage fighting the amper instead of coming back after 30 secs (no cat and mouse).

Umm, it would have to be potential damage fired as opposed to actual damage inflicted, or it'd be far too powerful. It'd be too powerful either way tbh, 'cause it's already pretty damn good.