Level IIIA Armour

[keihaswarrior]

um... you can kill an inf player with a level3 shooting them to the chest with a few mp5 shots... do they really only do 1% damage?

No, you are wrong. If your target died after a few MP5 shots, then you weren't hitting them in the chest or they weren't wearing armor.

MP540/A3 does 1 damage to front of llla armor, not 1%. It's a hitpoint, not a percentage.

Only the first shot, subsequent shots increase the damage rate as it weakens the armour, otherwise it would take a lot more mp5 shots.

No it does not weaken. The Helmet, ll, and llla vest in INF reduce the damage on a certain number of rounds, and then they have no effect.

For example the Kevlar helmet stops 3 pistol rounds and then all subsequent shots do full damage (kill). The llla vest can stop 20 (yes 20!) rounds from an Mk23 Socom before they start doing full damage. Each of the first 20 rounds will do 1 damage until the 21st round which does 45.

 

[Lethal Dosage]

Thats funny cus i emptied a M1911 clip into a bots chest with Lvl3a armour and she died. And i've consistantly put single .45 rounds into bots' helmeted heads.

Does the Helmet cover the whole head? Or is the "face" un-armoured?

 

[keihaswarrior]

Thats funny cus i emptied a M1911 clip into a bots chest with Lvl3a armour and she died.

Obviously a couple rounds missed the vest and did full damage, possibly even a 'headshot.'

And i've consistantly put single .45 rounds into bots' helmeted heads.

Does the Helmet cover the whole head? Or is the "face" un-armoured?

There is no 'head' or 'face.' There is just a cylinder. And yes it is still possible to 'headshot' enemies who are wearing helmets... you don't even have to aim for the face strangely....

The more you become aware of how bad the hit detection is, the more you long for Real Targets.

 

[geogob]

KW the face is not protected by helmet IIRC.

 

[ravens_hawk]

There's also "Neck" region IIRC, that's unprotected. A fun thing to try is to turn on RT and the hit dectetion feedback (for what area was hit etc.)

 

[UN17]

RT has absolutely nothing to do with INF's armor system. Do not use it as an indicatior of what hit what. What RT tells you when you have hit messages on is what RT zone you hit. INF's armor system is a simple height & angle check of the player cylinder.

 

[keihaswarrior]

UN17, do you have, or can you make a visual aid that shows the hit cylinder and the different zones on it for armor and headshot damage?

It would be useful to show players the difference between 'vanilla' hit detection and something like Real Targets.

 

[UN17]

Step 1: Grab 10 guys with minimis and 3 cans of bullets.
Step 2: Find a victim, give them godmode and stick them against a wall.
Step 3: Set him to godmode, set Decalstay on.
Step 4: Fire 6000 bullets at the guy.

When he steps away from the wall, you'll see a rectangular area that is untouched by bullets. That's the INF hit cylinder. Repeat steps 1-4 with Real Targets on.

There are probably more scientific ways to illustrate it, but my way is more fun.

Oh, I didn't answer your question, did I? Aside from reading the exact height and angles hardcoded into the INF armor, there's nothing in there to make it fun. You probably could code a subclass of the INF armor so that every time it takes a hit, it broadcasts a message about where it was hit and if it's applying armor modifiers and what is the status of the armor. Just like RT does. Not that RT has armor, I was expecting INF's armor to work, but apparently it's not reliable. So RT was going to remove any INF armor actors and just apply its own armor system.

 

[Lethal Dosage]

Well i use RT, and i was like 5m away from the ststionary target, i couldn't have missed.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Step 1: Grab 10 guys with minimis and 3 cans of bullets.
Step 2: Find a victim, give them godmode and stick them against a wall.
Step 3: Set him to godmode, set Decalstay on.
Step 4: Fire 6000 bullets at the guy.

When he steps away from the wall, you'll see a rectangular area that is untouched by bullets. That's the INF hit cylinder. Repeat steps 1-4 with Real Targets on.

There are probably more scientific ways to illustrate it, but my way is more fun...

I thought geo coded a function into Real Targets that displayed the hit detection zones. I thought it would be cool to compare that with vanilla to show people the advantage of RT.

Besides, I don't think my computer can handle 6000 decals

Well i use RT, and i was like 5m away from the ststionary target, i couldn't have missed.

Um.. you're confused. We've been discussing the properties of the llla vest when used with vanilla hit detection, not RT.

 

[geogob]

well it doesn't exactly display hit cylinders. But the day i dust of RT (this summer), the first thing i do is recode that with new meshes that will exactly show the hit cylinders.

My recent coding projects gave me a lot of experience. Working with RT will be much more fun and efficient now.

 

[UN17]

Well, yes. What I was saying is that RT has no functions to tell you what INF cylinder zone you hit, because INF has no labels, nor zones. It's just one tall cylinder. If bullet hits higher than X, headshot. If lower than Y, leg shot. Real Targets changes this system by calculating the bullet's path through the cylinder and if it hit one of the RT zones, predefined in RT's code, then it does have the ability to announce "KW was shot in the left ear" The problem is that the RT zones aren't 100% accurate yet so some shots might simply pass right through, even though it should have hit something. Does this make any sense?

In short, RT is a much more realistic solution than INF/UT's default collision method, but it is faulty and could use a good beta team to tweak the zones. The alternative would be to spawn many, many little UT collision cylinders and try to keep track of them all That's what they do in Half Life, except in HL, their cynlinders are boxes and they can tilt. You can't tilt hit cylinders in UT

Hopefully UT2K7 will have better collision detection than a big cylinder (which they still use in 2K3/4).

 

[yurch]

Comparing RT and other hit systems doesn't make much sense. Other games have the ability to easily track where the various locations are through the animation cycle. RT does not. To do so would require either a manually formed database of animation frames, or some set of 'interest points' compiled into and tracked by the skeletal animation system. Using UT cylinders wouldn't help anyway without that information.

BS4 had the insanity scope which would (offline) display dots at the central points of each collision pill. Does RT no longer have that function?

2k3/2k4 use a cylinder, but they are capable of checking for collisions by radius-to-bone, similar to RT/BS4. Headshots are handled this way.

 

[geogob]

yeah it's still there! I did other fun experiments with hit locations and stuff.

 

[UN17]

I went to play the "realism" games for UT2K4 (Strike Force, SAS, TacOps) and shots to the air next to the head resulted in death. If there really is per bone collision, someone should tell them to use it. I didn't play Red Orchestra, but I have a feeling those people know how to use the UT2kX engine. Hopefully they have a proper hit system.

And yes Yurch, we were going for an animation state "interest point" method for RT. Since we can't track the exact frame (or can we...) we would just arrange the zones according to an average depending on the player's motion. So "Fast strafe left" would have one setting. "Crouched, slow backwards" would have another. As you can see, it's a huge amount of animations to cover... Which would explain why RT 2.0? 3.0? was never released.

 

[yurch]

IAnd yes Yurch, we were going for an animation state "interest point" method for RT. Since we can't track the exact frame (or can we...) we would just arrange the zones according to an average depending on the player's motion.

No, that's more of a database of animation types.

It's possible to somehow encode event calls and (attachment is it called? How else do you get weapons to show up in the hands?) points into even UT animations - consider having an 'attachment point' for each hitbox attached to every section of interest - legs, arms, head, ect. This would solve nearly every hitbox tracking/location problem BS4/RT could ever have. The hitbox location is now tracked by the animation code - they would match.

Problem is, you probably need the original animation files for this. Hey, maybe you can dupe the animations and make an invisible animated hitbox run along with the normal inf soldier.