New 40mms

yurch · Jan 13, 2004

keihaswarrior said:
yurch go test them. I know 40mm are supposed to be less powerful. But, the M67 especially is too weak. I can throw them 4 ft away and they don't kill me. Instead of adding more shrap, can't you just make all the shrap do more damage?

I've already said they don't kick up enough shrapnel. (less projectiles = less chance of getting hit. You can make them do 8000 damage and it won't make a difference if you don't get hit) Telling me to "go test them" is pretty petty of you, considering I was running a server with them half of last night. You can blow them up in your hand and still survive, I'm quite aware that they're ****ing screwed up.

Also, the HE 40mm always says 5m casualty radius. Casualty in INF = dead because there is no real wound system. If you are heavily wounded in INF you are dead. IMO, anyone standing within 5m of point of impact with direct LOS should die unless they get extremely lucky AND are wearing both llla and a helmet.

At the same time players are taking 5.56 rounds to the chest and staying standing. Casualty is subjective.

keihaswarrior said:
1) The smoke seems awfully dark and opaque and dissipates quite slowly.

Visuals could still use some work. I suggest trying to make the smoke look more like one big cloud that dissipates rather than several small clouds that spread out. Also, the smoke is very dark, opaque, and stays too long.

The dust is still too dark and opaque. I would try to make it like a very small white smoke grenade, but make the smoke darker and dirtier than WS.

I heard you the first time!

Tiffy · Jan 13, 2004

Yes, like all rounds of ammunition 40x46mmR indicates the round has a calibre of 40mm and a case length of 46mm. The R indicates its a rim fire round.

As an indication the M386 HE grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 99mm.

The M576 MP grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 67mm.

The M583 White parachute flare grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 134mm.

Are we starting to see a trend here folks.

46mm in the 40x46mmR indicates the length of the case, just like 5,56x45mm indicates the case is 45mm long and 7.62x51mm indicates the case is 51mm long.

I though we had this discussion a little time back in another thread.

DamienW · Jan 13, 2004

Just a quick reply to say that i find the smoke perfect as is.

keihaswarrior · Jan 13, 2004

yurch said:
I've already said they don't kick up enough shrapnel. (less projectiles = less chance of getting hit. You can make them do 8000 damage and it won't make a difference if you don't get hit) Telling me to "go test them" is pretty petty of you, considering I was running a server with them half of last night. You can blow them up in your hand and still survive, I'm quite aware that they're ****ing screwed up.

Sorry,

I think I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you weren't going to change them.

At the same time players are taking 5.56 rounds to the chest and staying standing. Casualty is subjective.

Maybe a damage mutie is in order?

Here is an idea I posted a little while ago that I think you saw. It would be nice to be able to kill people with one 5.56 to the chest, but for it to take quite a few to drop them by hitting the edge of the cylinder or below their knees.

"I wouldn't think that it would measure distance from bullet impact to the axis of the cylinder. Instead it would measure the distance from the bullet impact to the line that passes from the middle of your hit cylinder through the middle of the enemy's cylinder.

Therefore, when you view an soldier, the game takes a line from the middle of your body and passes it through the middle of the opposing soldier's cylinder. When the bullets hit his cylinder, the game calculates the distance from the impact to the imaginary line that passed through his cylinder.

The system could be tweaked by changing where the line passes through the enemy. It would probably work best when placed in the upper middle of the cylinder (center of the torso)."

from this thread: http://forums.beyondunreal.com/showthread.php?t=80288&page=43&pp=30

Specter · Jan 13, 2004

Tiffy said:
As an indication the M386 HE grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 99mm.

The M576 MP grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 67mm.

The M583 White parachute flare grenade is a 40x46mmR round.
Its diameter is 44mm and its length is 134mm.

I know how the caliber, case length, and rims work. The flare rounds look like they have a different case length. From pictures it looks to be about 70% shorter than the case of the other rounds, which would mean that it is more like a 40x32mm casing. Diagrams of the different rounds indicate that the two do have different types of casings:
40mm M433 High Explosive Dual Purpose cartrige (M118 cartridge case):
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m433.JPG
40mm M583A1 White Star Parachute cartrige (M195 cartridge case):
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m583.JPG

That is why I thought they might not all be called 40x46mm grenades.

Bushwack · Jan 13, 2004

hey yurchy, id help you test online on your test server, *hint hint*, but i dont know the password

Tiffy · Jan 14, 2004

To be honest those para flares may have a shorter case but the round is still designated as a 40x46mmR round. The important part of a rim-fire round is the rim. this is what gives your round its obturation and is where the measurements for determining wear are taken. Those para flare rounds may also have a cover on them as the projectile looks to be wider than the case body which can't happen.

Ask Grunt about M203 ammunition as he's going to have seen and used a danmed sight more of it than I ever did.

The point I was making is you can't fit a 40x53mmR grenade from the Mk19 system into an M203.

Specter · Jan 14, 2004

Yurch, after you finalize the New 40mms mutator have you thought of adding new ammunition to other weapons, such as the shotgun? It might be a good idea to make some kind of "change ammo" key for mutators that add new ammunitions.

Are you going to add any new grenades, like different color smoke grenades or non lethal rounds?

yurch · Jan 14, 2004

New grenades I'm undecided on. Colored smoke isn't terribly useful (non lethal isn't at ALL useful

), and all of the existing 40mm flares I'm aware of can't be modeled to a useful degree. If someone finds something interesting, let me know.

In terms of development I've been further messing with the general balance of the mutator. Movement 'inaccuracies' have been added to the 40mm's to match those of ordinary bullets, this is both to prevent accurate moving grenading and the bizzare ease of placing the buckshot at a full jogging strafe.

I'm trying - and I may regret this - a bulk of 1 for all of the 40mm's. This is not to facilitate spamming but rather so a dedicated 'grenadier' can carry multiple ammo types while still having enough of each type to be useful. A launcher, 24-36 grenades (how much does a grenadier's vest hold?) and a lvl II vest is a reasonable bulk now.

Grapically I have not found a single alternate set of textures that looks as good as the current black smoke. I'm still looking, but it may be possible the next release will still have it. I've grown rather attached to it.

Next release I think will be okay enough for others to try online - but more versions may be needed. I don't want the game to become all about the explosives, so I think at least a little babysitting is in order.

Hannibal301 · Jan 14, 2004

yurch said:
I'm trying - and I may regret this - a bulk of 1 for all of the 40mm's. This is not to facilitate spamming but rather so a dedicated 'grenadier' can carry multiple ammo types while still having enough of each type to be useful. A launcher, 24-36 grenades (how much does a grenadier's vest hold?) and a lvl II vest is a reasonable bulk now.

I'm almost certain you'll regret it

It's a great concept, but 40mms seem to be abused to a great extent already (Even some of the worst 40mm abusers agree with me on that) and making it easy to carry a lot will certainly make the problem worse. Still, those who wish to overuse their launchers can and do already carry more than enough ammunition to do so anyway and if your changes to the general characteristics of the grenades make them somewhat harder to use, gameplay could end up being substantially bettered. In any case, I don't think the new grenade types will help the "nade spammers" much with their current tactics, so I hope to see them on the servers soon!

Hannibal

keihaswarrior · Jan 14, 2004

I don't view "nade spamming" as a bad thing. It is the best form of cover fire there is. It doesn't take much to avoid getting "spammed." If you know a certain spot gets spammed a lot.... don't go there! or at least don't hug the wall, that just makes grenadiers salivate.

Oh, and thanks for adding the conefire to jogging 40mm shots. Strafe-jogging shots combined with no inertia system to prevent side to side strafing is really annoying IMO.

I also like how you lowered the bulk for 40mm. They do weigh approx half of what an M67 does anyway. Now I can carry enough HE's to last me and still have enough left over for WS and other goodies.

Oh, and not to get too off topic, but what did you think about my idea for a damage mutie?

DamienW · Jan 14, 2004

Hannibal301 said:
I'm almost certain you'll regret it

It's a great concept, but 40mms seem to be abused to a great extent already (Even some of the worst 40mm abusers agree with me on that) and making it easy to carry a lot will certainly make the problem worse. Still, those who wish to overuse their launchers can and do already carry more than enough ammunition to do so anyway and if your changes to the general characteristics of the grenades make them somewhat harder to use, gameplay could end up being substantially bettered. In any case, I don't think the new grenade types will help the "nade spammers" much with their current tactics, so I hope to see them on the servers soon!

Hannibal

Don't forget that yurch's 40mms, those with a lesser bulk, are less lethal than vanilla inf's 40mms. They require better shot placement to kill.

yurch · Jan 14, 2004

Hah, looks like I forgot to make shrapnel hurt the owner. :lol:

Keganator · Jan 14, 2004

That would be a minor side note to take care of. Just minor, a little.

Grunt11Bravo · Jan 14, 2004

how much does a grenadier's vest hold?

24 rounds IIRC.

Arethusa · Jan 15, 2004

Just a couple issues. These show up in the loadout 3d display far too close to the camera. Just a minor bug. The new grenade types are also incapable of being, ahem, manually detonated when they're lying on the ground. Again, not major, but it'd be nice to have this fixed.

By the way, flechette rounds? Come on. You know you want to.

Tiffy · Jan 15, 2004

Arethusa said:
The new grenade types are also incapable of being, ahem, manually detonated when they're lying on the ground. Again, not major, but it'd be nice to have this fixed.

By the way, flechette rounds? Come on. You know you want to.

IRL unless your going to spin the round in your hands at the correct rate and time before placing it on the ground how exactly are you going to "manually" detonate a 40mm grenade. Unless your going to take a set of tools to the greande and take it apart your not going to set the bloody thing off.

Personally I'd like to see the 'feature' removed from the original grenades if its present.

I don't beleive Flechette rounds got much further than field trials in Vietnam. Flechettes tend to have poor balistic performance compared to shot in low pressure applications like this. They also induce large amounts of wear in gun tubes, hence nobody uses them now and never did in large numbers....at all.

Arethusa · Jan 15, 2004

If I recall correctly, the flechettes that got used in Vietnam for anti personnel applications were shotgun rounds and not 40mm? Then again, could just be misremembering.

Anyway, the current feature allows the grenades to be detonated by weapons fire or other nearby explosions. I was under the impression that this is really not realistic as anything other than a rare occurrence, but it's an oversight either way: either completely remove it from all grenades or put it on everything. 'sides, it is fun, realism be damned.

As a side note, chances are it should be removed from hand grenades too.

Beppo · Jan 15, 2004

I guess you are talking about the "Destroyable Ammo" feature that can be turned on/off within our Performance menu. A fun option left from the first days of INF for UT.

If this option is on (off by default) then dropped 40mm ammo and dropped M67 frag grenades can be detonated by damage (dropped mags too).

Dud 40mms cannot be blown up by anything even with this option turned on.

Beppo

yurch · Jan 15, 2004

I've decided to keep them at 2 bulk. You can carry far too many otherwise.

I'm calling this release 1.
Features a 'smart' ammo selector and numerous small fixes too small to be of mention.

New 40mms

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