XM177 and M4

[Ranger 223]

i know that zundy, what im saying is, i see M4A1's with a one piece carry handle like that on a M16A2 ALOT!. i know what the current weaver base M4 recievers look like. Perhaps these are older models? as im am POSITIVE that they are M4's, and am POSITIVE that it's a fixed carry handle. No, it's not a XM, or a M733 either.

 

[Zundfolge]

I would bet the rifles you're seeing are NOT M4s but are CAR-15s

 

[Spier]

According to the book, the Delta Force and Rangers in Blackhawk down where issued CAR-15 rifles (CAR means Colt Accurized Rifle) which are basicaly Colts version of the M4A1 only with the fixed handle (BTW, another name for the CAR-15 is the XM-177 ... I believe they are called XM-177 when they are built by Bushmaster, but I could be wrong) although a couple of the Delta guys carried M14s (Delta gets to carry whatever they want)

Source please.

 

[Zundfolge]

Spier, "the book" I refered to was Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden.

At least 2 of the Delta Force guys carried M-14s. Delta Sniper, Randy Shughart carried one (modified as a sniper rifle), and I can't remember the name of the other guy, but there is one scene in the book (don't know if it made it to the movie) where 2 Delta operators and several Rangers are pinned down in a house, the Rangers are shooting CAR-15s loaded with green tips (armor pearcing ammo) and they are shooting at "Sammies" wearing nothing but t-shirts and such ... as a concequence the 5.56mm green tips are just zinging right through the enemy without instantly killing them but one of the Delta guys is dropping them left and right with .308 rounds from his M14.

Here's the original series of articles Mark Bowden wrote for the Philadelphia paper on the subject
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp

 

[Gnam]

So what is the purpose of the carry handle anyway? I don't think I've ever seen a soldier carying his M16 or M4 by the handle, like a breif case. Even if you were carrying something in your other hand, it would seem easier to just carry it by the handgaurd, sling it, or hold it to your shoulder Rev-war style. It seems like it functions more as protective housing for the rear sights and as a built-in high scope mount than and actual carrying-device, and it seems odd that for the most part, there no other rifles which have this feature.

 

[spm1138]

AFAIKnew CAR-15 means Colt Automatic (or Assault?) Rifle and the term was at least partly used to differentiate Colt's stuff from Armalite's stuff.

XM-177 refers to the original 11.5" barelled weapons as used in Vietnam and made by Colt.

I think the term CAR-15 basically gets applied to any short barrelled M16 that isn't an M4 which would logically include weapons with 10"-16" barrels (did the 16" barrel ever take off for military use?).

I recall that scene where the Delta Force are trying to make their shots count but are being frustrated in their efforts by the green-tip rounds.
I also recall one of the Delta Force guys being quoted as saying he wanted the people he shot to know about it which was why he was carrying an M14.

If you look at other rifles with the sights mounted straight on the top you'll notice their shoulder stocks drop down relative to the rest of the rifle. The M16 by contrast has a straight line from the muzzle of the gun right back to the stock. I guess that this is supposed to help make the recoil controllable (i.e. it goes straight back into the shoulder instead of pivoting around it).

 

[Zundfolge]

I carry my AR15 around by the carry handle all the time. Other rifles have built in handles;

the FAL

the FAMAS

just for a couple of examples

 

[Spier]

I have heard of the book, oh and the movie..and the game. What I wanted was a source for the tiny sentence I put in bold:
"Delta gets to carry whatever they want"

M14's aren't exactly rare in desert theaters, so I wondered why you noted that they could carry whatever they wanted. And far more importantly, what is your source for this?

I would also like to know what chapter I can find the incident you described in.

 

[spm1138]

I would also like to know what chapter I can find the incident you described in.

http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/dec07/default07.asp

"Delta gets to carry whatever they want"

http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/ask/ask6.asp

 

[Zundfolge]

I'll have to dig into the book to give you the exact chapter (if you check out the series of newspaper articles I linked above, the bit about green tip ammo is mentioned in Chapter 22).

Somewhere toward the begining of the book Bowden gives a detailed description of the Delta guys. Basically they don't see themselves as "regular army", many grow their hair longer and grow facial hair and are not required to be "in uniform" when on duty. They don't refer to each other by rank, and in general don't care much about ranks. In general they decide to use whatever gear they want (one other example is that they wear hockey type helmets instead of the Kevlar the Rangers are issued).

You should pick up the book ... its a pretty good read (especially for non-fiction).

 

[cleve-ntt]

Wow, you learn so much

I thought the M4A1 and M16 were similar, but they are hte same but with different barrels - right?

So howcomes the M4A1 does auto and the M16 don't?

 

[Gnam]

The M16 did have full auto at first, in the M16 and M16A1 versions. When they made the M16A2 (sometime in the early 80's I beleive) auto was switched to burst to help soldiers control their fire and conserve ammo (it was found after the 3rd shot their was very low probability in hitting anything). Interestingly, I beleive in the M16A3 they restored full auto, and then took it away again in the A4. Neither the A3 or A4 have gone into service though. The army seems somewhat indecisive about burst fire vs full auto.

The M4 probably has full auto because it was designed for urban combat and CQB more than long range sharp shooting. It is designed to be an all purpose weapon.

 

[spm1138]

I read somewhere that the M16A2 was designed with USMC input, that they originally wanted a semiauto only rifle (along with the better sights and whatnot) and that the 3RB was a compromise.

What are those flat-top full length M16's I keep seeing on the one eyed god?

The M4A1 has full auto because it was designed for special operations personel who are assumed to be well trained enough to manually regulate their bursts.

 

[kungpaosamuraiii]

Unfortunately these people who are played by teen uberboppers can't regulate jack on AA servers. Not even if the rifle only has semi.

The M4 that SPM didn't mention (without the A1) designation has the same grouping as the M16A2. Also I'm almost sure that the M4 doesn't have the RIS grip while the M4A1 does.


Speaking of RIS grips, what do you people think about the Mosquito M16/M4 one-size-fits-both RIS grip for my airsoft rifle? It seems to require the least assembly.