Why Bush didn't join Kyoto...

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

"Show them how it's done"? The biggest offenders won't even be affected by Kyoto. They're 'developing nations'. The whole thing looks nice on paper, but blows in reality. The United States government doesn't want to ratify because portions of the treaty are so poorly concieved.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and all that.

 

[Vega-don]

those numbers means nothing.. less vehicules / square mile of populated area? please. japan and european countries are more dense. this statistic was only made to make the usa appear less motorized.



the only relevant number is / 1000 people.

and then , the average vehicule in the usa probably pollutes more than the average italian vehicule. FIAT, Voslvagen, citroen or General motors, Mercedes, lexus ? big 4*4 and pickups vs small cars

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

those numbers means nothing.. less vehicules / square mile of populated area? please. japan and european countries are more dense. this statistic was only made to make the usa appear less motorized.
the only relevant number is / 1000 people.
and then , the average vehicule in the usa probably pollutes more than the average italian vehicule. FIAT, Voslvagen, citroen or General motors, Mercedes, lexus ? big 4*4 and pickups vs small cars

If you don't put things in perspective of populated area, the United States, Canada, Russia, and China all look like the best nations in the world thanks to sheer size alone. Also, concentrating large numbers of emissions-producing sources (such as cars, industry, etc) in small areas has a greater effect than having them spread out over a reasonable distance. And those statistics came from several non-partisan sources, many international organizations.

Every vehicle in the United States is required by the EPA to pass strict emissions standards. Many Chinese- and Japanese- manufactured vehicles cannot be driven in the US without modification. This is also true of several european models. We also continually update our emissions requirements. Just recently, a new law was passed that makes the Saturn SL2 that I race no longer legal to drive on the road due to the fact that it cannot meet the latest addition to the emissions regulations. I do not know of many other countries that actively revise and enforce such regulations on the scale that we do.

The average vehicle in the United States may consume more fuel than the average vehicle in Italy, thanks to our lumbering SUV's and 20-ft long sedans, but our fuel contains additives to increase octane ratings in order to burn cleaner and more efficiently (ethanol, MTBE).

We also drive more. You might say "Oh well drive less you lazy bastards! Dump some money into mass transit!". But we live further from our places of work, and our cities and suburbs are spread further as a result. We have a more developed infrastructure of highways than most nations. Our lifestyle and our industry and goods and services transportation network reflects the access we have to petroleum products. Systems and habits that work in other nations do not work here as a result.

 

[Rostam]

I can't believe you compared Houston to Mexico City. Then again, I can't believe you are actually defending what is going on.

You know for the second time this thread Don made a point, wow I can't remember the last time I remembered agreeing with him

Fact is just about every country in the world needs to start acting before even more cities become like LA or Mexico City.

If I weren't so lazy I'd figure out those statistics myself. Because saying something like the Netherlands have more cars per square mile than the US is just stupid and proves nothing. Also comparing it with poor countries (that are developping their way out of poverty even so you can have your low cost T-shirts and shoes) wasn't exactly that fair.

Edit: Oh, and I love how everyone is like "Bush didn't join Kyoto" as if it was only him that snubbed it. The Senate turned it down something like 95-0 in 1997. It was turned down again recently. The decision has never been up to Bush.

You know I could be wrong but as president I'd say he has alot more power than just what the law says. I believe that he could easily push it through.
The Senate itself well, if it is full of democrats and republicans (correct me if I'm wrong) then they really shouldn't be the ones trusted with any power at all.

Look I realise the US isn't busy trying to pollute as much as possible. I'm saying it's not doing nearly enough. Keeping China, South Korea, Mexico and what not out of it: just stricly speaking, the US is not doing enough. That is what I believe, I haven't said a word about the other countries but just so you know I of course believe all countries should help out and cut down on emmissions. It's not that I'm scared of the planet heating up, it's that I believe there are so many better alternatives out there (the mag lev train for example).

Building those would create jobs and in the long run improve public transport. Win win, right?

edit:
Instaposted

Forgot to say 2 things.
First, I hope I don't come off as an *******, that's not my intension.

Second, assuming there is one person every x miles would make the US pretty damned clean. But more often than not, there is nothing for a great many miles and then there is a city. In some cities, the amount of people / square mile is probably higher than alot of cities in most European countries. So because of this I don't believe the "spread out" theory because IMO, it isn't spread out that much.

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

I can't believe you compared Houston to Mexico City. Then again, I can't believe you are actually defending what is going on.

Defending? No, more like sick of the United States getting 99% of the heat. It's like the older sibling that catches all the flak for what all his brothers and sisters are doing wrong when they suddenly decide to run to the parents and cry. Generally, no one makes a fuss until we decide not to go along with some brilliant new scheme. Everyone expends their energy pointing fingers at us while other nations stomp all over whatever ideals are currently being argued over.

Fact is just about every country in the world needs to start acting before even more cities become like LA or Mexico City.

I agree, but we don't live in a perfect world.

If I weren't so lazy I'd figure out those statistics myself. Because saying something like the Netherlands have more cars per square mile than the US is just stupid and proves nothing. Also comparing it with poor countries (that are developping their way out of poverty even so you can have your low cost T-shirts and shoes) wasn't exactly that fair.

It's not per square mile. It's calculated based on average population density per square mile of heavily populated areas; narrowing it down to major population centers, essentially. If you do not throw in some static variable, you can't even begin to compare the Netherlands with Japan or the United States or Outer Mongolia or whatever. The difference in population alone is staggering. The difference in the size and number of cities makes it like comparing apples to oranges. It needs to be put in perspective.

You know I could be wrong but as president I'd say he has alot more power than just what the law says. I believe that he could easily push it through.
The Senate itself well, if it is full of democrats and republicans (correct me if I'm wrong) then they really shouldn't be the ones trusted with any power at all.

He can sign whatever he wants and support whatever he wants, but there's still a functioning system of checks and balances in place. And yes, the Senate has some Democrats and Republicans. If it didn't, it wouldn't exist thanks to our political environment. Saying the Senate should not be trusted with power reveals either ignorance or misunderstanding regarding political and law-making processes in the US.

Look I realise the US isn't busy trying to pollute as much as possible. I'm saying it's not doing nearly enough. Keeping China, South Korea, Mexico and what not out of it: just stricly speaking, the US is not doing enough. That is what I believe, I haven't said a word about the other countries but just so you know I of course believe all countries should help out and cut down on emmissions. It's not that I'm scared of the planet heating up, it's that I believe there are so many better alternatives out there (the mag lev train for example).

We do as much as is reasonable, given our industrial capacity, research and development spending, etc. Alternatives require time and, in the case of existing infrastructure, massive amounts of resources to implement. Converting this nations railways to maglev alone is an undertaking that would far eclipse any engineering or construction project ever undertaken by mankind. Even phasing out old technology on this scale would be a monumental feat.

Building those would create jobs and in the long run improve public transport. Win win, right?

Yes it would create jobs, and yes it would improve mass transit. But this is not the great depression. Resources and manpower are not cheap. I sincerely doubt the average US citizen would be willing to foot the bill to do something like this.

 

[Rostam]

And yes, the Senate has some Democrats and Republicans. If it didn't, it wouldn't exist thanks to our political environment. Saying the Senate should not be trusted with power reveals either ignorance or misunderstanding regarding political and law-making processes in the US.

The problem is that I swear at times certain politicians will do things just to make the other side look bad (no surprise here) but I just have this feeling, can't support it, that they even do it in the senate. This goes for all countries by the way. Because they are part of a party, members also tend to be forced to vote whatever the party wants them to.

As for the mag lev thing, undergoing great projects has great perks. I understand it will be hard to do but because of that new ideas will arrise. It's kinda like the Dutch, when we decided to build a sophisticated wall against the water (our biggest friend and enemy) that we had learned so many new things that we could then sell to other countries.
Oh and I realise it would cost a lot of money but I just don't think that way. Since you are paying US citizens to do the work, I don't see the loss. Plus a few of the 5,5% that are unemployed might benefit from actually having a job as well.
Sure there are flaws as well, but I just think differently when it comes to this. Progress is something I aim for everyday, so that's what I hope countries do too.

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

The problem is that I swear at times certain politicians will do things just to make the other side look bad (no surprise here) but I just have this feeling, can't support it, that they even do it in the senate. This goes for all countries by the way. Because they are part of a party, members also tend to be forced to vote whatever the party wants them to.

Yes.

As for the mag lev thing, undergoing great projects has great perks. I understand it will be hard to do but because of that new ideas will arrise.

I think "hard" is an understatement.

It's kinda like the Dutch, when we decided to build a sophisticated wall against the water (our biggest friend and enemy) that we had learned so many new things that we could then sell to other countries. Oh and I realise it would cost a lot of money but I just don't think that way. Since you are paying US citizens to do the work, I don't see the loss. Plus a few of the 5,5% that are unemployed might benefit from actually having a job as well. Sure there are flaws as well, but I just think differently when it comes to this. Progress is something I aim for everyday, so that's what I hope countries do too.

A good portion of that 5.5% are perfectly happy being unemployed and enjoy being subsidized by the Federal Government for being as such. There is no room, nor will there be room in the near future, for a national project on this scale. The economy could not support it, the government's budget can't carry it, and private sector companies wouldn't even think of risking such enormous amounts of capital without insurance and subsidies from the government.

You can't even begin to compare the dyke system to an infrastructure overhaul. Holland is barely the size of one of our smaller states, Massachusetts. The Great Wall of China is a speck compared to the ~180,000 miles of rail that exist in the US. Even if we were to overhaul just the essential passenger mainlines, you're looking at major urban construction over 50,000 miles of track, and severe distruption to the flow of goods and people.

That's not to say it will be impossible. It will happen gradually over time as resources and opportunity allow; just like how we are moving from coal power to Natural Gas and Nuclear. By 2035 we will have cut the number of coal-fired plants to a quarter of what we have today, and probably increased our power generation capacity by 60%. (edit: 2050 was incorrect, it is 2035. I was reading the wrong page of notes).

China and India, meanwhile, are busy building coal plants until they come out their ears. I will say that China deserves credit for starting construction on the Three Gorges Dam hydroelectic facility... but even that is a mixed blessing.

Hydroelectric powerplants that require reservoirs to be created are actually more harmful to the environment than a coal plant of equivalent capacity.

 

[Rostam]

Well I agree, obviously you couldn't do it within a few decenia but doing it in one place where it matters most then try to to implent it in other places is something that might be possible within the next 20, 30 years. Which is what you are saying

I'm glad you mentioned nuclear power plants. I love those things. It's just a matter of time before something is discovered that allows us to draw energy from them without the radioactive waste. Atleast, that's what I tell myself.

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

I'm glad you mentioned nuclear power plants. I love those things. It's just a matter of time before something is discovered that allows us to draw energy from them without the radioactive waste. Atleast, that's what I tell myself.

I am a big proponent of nuclear power. I find France's endeavors with the Iter to be especially interesting. They are constructing a plant with an experimental reactor that will duplicate the reaction that takes place in stars.

A quick Google seach turned up this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3239806.stm

 

[TheShiningWizard]

...the Saturn SL2 that I race...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Weighs less than a McLaren F1, corners better than a Subaru WRX, accelerates faster than the Corvete ZR1. Most people aren't laughing when they get buried by a little plastic car on track day.

 

[cracwhore]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Seconded. Although, I'd edit that and make it about 30,000 characters longer - to really emphasize the 'I just peed my pants' aspect of it all.

 

[TheShiningWizard]

Weighs less than a McLaren F1, corners better than a Subaru WRX, accelerates faster than the Corvete ZR1. Most people aren't laughing when they get buried by a little plastic car on track day.

Suppose you tell people that you sleep with an 80-year-old woman, and they respond with mocking laughter. You then tell them that this woman has a tighter pussy than a teenage virgin, longer legs than Stacy Kiebler and rides harder than a BET dancing ho.

Well, whoop-de-do, Kibby; they're still gonna laugh because you're fucking an 80-year-old woman.

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

Suppose you tell people that you sleep with an 80-year-old woman, and they respond with mocking laughter. You then tell them that this woman has a tighter pussy than a teenage virgin, longer legs than Stacy Kiebler and rides harder than a BET dancing ho.

Well, whoop-de-do, Kibby; they're still gonna laugh because you're fucking an 80-year-old woman.

That's the worst analogy I think you could've possibly come up with.

 

[yurch]

Which makes it the best one!

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

Well, tell you what. You can come up and ride shotgun during a few open laps, and I bet the next day you'll be over at Wal-Mart trying to pick up some old ladies in walkers.

 

[sublime]

Cool, wanna trade laps some time? I usually go to TWS near College Station, TX, but that's probably far for you.

 

[TheShiningWizard]

Sorry, I don't do cars. Let me know if you ever get into motorcycles.

 

[Kibbles-N-Bits]

Cool, wanna trade laps some time? I usually go to TWS near College Station, TX, but that's probably far for you.

I think our team was down that way last year for a BMW club road-race or something. I couldn't go (can't skip a week of lectures for that), so I got stuck loading the cars onto the trailer and stacking tires for like 15 goddamn hours

If you're ever up around New England (yeah, right). Let me know. What are you driving?