Why Bush didn't join Kyoto...

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The_Pikeman

Also known as Howski
Nov 20, 2001
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Revealed: how oil giant influenced Bush

President's George Bush's decision not to sign the United States up to the Kyoto global warming treaty was partly a result of pressure from ExxonMobil, the world's most powerful oil company, and other industries, according to US State Department papers seen by the Guardian.

The documents, which emerged as Tony Blair visited the White House for discussions on climate change before next month's G8 meeting, reinforce widely-held suspicions of how close the company is to the administration and its role in helping to formulate US policy.

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In briefing papers given before meetings to the US under-secretary of state, Paula Dobriansky, between 2001 and 2004, the administration is found thanking Exxon executives for the company's "active involvement" in helping to determine climate change policy, and also seeking its advice on what climate change policies the company might find acceptable.

Other papers suggest that Ms Dobriansky should sound out Exxon executives and other anti-Kyoto business groups on potential alternatives to Kyoto.



Suppose it just comfirmed the speculation but still hurray for goverments "for the people...."
-How.
 

Rostam

PSN: Rostam_
May 1, 2001
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Leiden, Holland
I'll agree that this is a simple comfirmation, since just about everybody ready to spend a minute thinking about it already came to this conclusion.
 

Arethusa

We will not walk in fear.
Jan 15, 2004
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Don, I think you are confused. The people who support Bush are not homos. They hate fags.
 

O_DoGG

Le Boner
Nov 17, 2002
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Errrr, didn't you find out he was a rapper in fact? I think you're flipflopping Don :p
Don said:
d0udipset9af.jpg
 

Olethros

Functional alcoholic
Now where's that "Captain Obvious to the rescue"-picture when I need it...

Oh, wait, here it is:
captain_obvious_to_the_rescue.gif


Bush-bashing aside, I'm really impressed with the way our own government is conforming to the Kyoto treaty: Rather than lower our emissions, we buy quotas from other nations that have pollution "to spare." So rather than actually engaging three brain cells between them and actually do something, our brilliant leaders have decided to throw even more of our money down the toilet apparently believing that the problem will go away eventually if we keep ignoring it. Go Norway!
 

Kibbles-N-Bits

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Dec 7, 1999
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I am surprised at how many people have no idea just how strict our air pollution and emission controls are in the United States. The majority of automobiles in the world marketplace cannot be imported into the United States without some pretty heavy emissions modifications (why do you think Skylines cost so much to import?). We also have some of the cleanest fossile-fuel power plants and the air quality in our largest cities is still decent in comparison to many other metro areas in the world.

The Kyoto Treaty fiasco puzzles me. Anyway, I didn't vote for Bush either.
 

Vega-don

arreté pour detention de tomate prohibée
Mar 17, 2003
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Kibbles-N-Bits said:
I am surprised at how many people have no idea just how strict our air pollution and emission controls are in the United States. The majority of automobiles in the world marketplace cannot be imported into the United States without some pretty heavy emissions modifications (why do you think Skylines cost so much to import?). We also have some of the cleanest fossile-fuel power plants and the air quality in our largest cities is still decent in comparison to many other metro areas in the world.

The Kyoto Treaty fiasco puzzles me. Anyway, I didn't vote for Bush either.

thats not to protect air but american car industry :lol:
 

Kibbles-N-Bits

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Dec 7, 1999
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Vega-don said:
thats not to protect air but american car industry :lol:

Yes, I am sure that the hundreds of millions of dollars spent every year on reducing emissions and formulating cleaner-burning gasoline is to protect our precious industry. :rolleyes:
 
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Rostam

PSN: Rostam_
May 1, 2001
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You know, if it weren't for the fact that just about everyone seems to drive a SUV the 'hundreds of millions of dollars' you talk about would make a difference. But I doubt it.

Give me some stats or something, I'm sorry but I'm not going to believe what you are saying now without some major proof. I've been in Houston for example and compared to just about every other major city I've been in my life, it was ruled by smell.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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not using cars at all would reduce the amount of pollution even more, but then again that would be too simple ...
 

Hadmar

Queen Bitch of the Universe
Jan 29, 2001
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Going back to riding horses (bus is ok, too) for transportation within a city would probably create more jobs then it would kill, too. :D
 

Keganator

White as Snow Moderator
Jun 19, 2001
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Yeah, I'd love to ride the 40 miles to work I have every day on the back of a horse. Wooo, Wha! Yee-ha! Ride'em Cowboy! Giddeyup, whee!

Or rather, maybe I should ride my horse the 15 miles to the nearest bus terminal, and then spend two hours on the bus to work? But then, where to park my horse...

Do they make a "The Club" for horses?
 

Hadmar

Queen Bitch of the Universe
Jan 29, 2001
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Keganator said:
Yeah, I'd love to ride the 40 miles to work I have every day on the back of a horse. Wooo, Wha! Yee-ha! Ride'em Cowboy! Giddeyup, whee!
Whoo, someone likes the idea! ;)

Keganator said:
Or rather, maybe I should ride my horse the 15 miles to the nearest bus terminal, and then spend two hours on the bus to work? But then, where to park my horse...
More bus stops are needed... especialy where you live. :con: "Stable and Go". New jobs will be created!

Keganator said:
Do they make a "The Club" for horses?
Don't know which club you mean but I don't see why certain clubs shouldn't exist for horses. Horse swinger and single clubs could be the biggest thing since the bannage of cars. :D
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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Keganator said:
Yeah, I'd love to ride the 40 miles to work I have every day on the back of a horse. Wooo, Wha! Yee-ha! Ride'em Cowboy! Giddeyup, whee!

Or rather, maybe I should ride my horse the 15 miles to the nearest bus terminal, and then spend two hours on the bus to work? But then, where to park my horse...
A mere 40 miles ?
That takes no more than 1 hour around here using nothing but public transport..
Nearest bust-station is within 500 meters.

Perhaps your government could invest a few million dollars into a more efficient public transport ...
 

Kibbles-N-Bits

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Dec 7, 1999
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Ok, here's some numbers.

The United States emits 5.7 billion tons of CO2 per year. The next closest is China at 3.4 billion, however that is less than 20 tons per person, per year. Compare this to Qatar, the UAE, and Kuwait which each emit more than twice that number. In terms of efficiency, we're running in the middle of the pack. China beats us, as does Russia.

As for Nitrogen Oxides, our emissions (1,200 tons per sq. mi of densly populated area) are below that of Japan (1,500), the UK (1,700). The UAE again hits near the top of the list with nearly three times that of Japan.

Oh, and the wonderful Sulfur Oxide. The United States produces about 70 kilos per capita per year. Australia is at just over 100, Canada at 90. Right below us is Hungary at ~68. As for SO2, we're practically at the bottom of the international dogpile here with 1700 tons per sq mi of populated area. Belgium dishes out 20,000. The UK is at around 5000. China comes in below them at around 3000.

Regarding urban areas... wow! You've been to Houston? Big deal. Go check out Mexico City sometime. Or Tokyo. Anyway, Mexico City has roughly twice the concentration of NO2 that our worst cities have (130mg per cubic meter vs our 60mg). Italy is way up there as well at 120mg, followed by the UAE (again... 95mg), China (76mg), the UK (65mg). Even Rwanda beats us at our own emissions game here (62mg).

Lets also take a look at CFC and the Ozone Depletion Potential. Remember those? Yeah, its the reason my grandmother stopped using aerosol hairsprays. China and South Korea both produce roughly a thousand times what the US does, each.

Cars! Here we go! The US has the most? Right? Of course we do! We have a huge population and a strong economy. However, we don't have the most cars per capita. The US has about 478 cars per thousand people. Italy's number one at 539. Austria's got 495. The UK is down there at 373. Canada is 460. But it's not just cars that pollute. All motor vehicles do. This includes boats and trains and trucks and motorcycles. We top this list at 765 per thousand people. The next closest major nation is Australia at 619. Despite this, the United States has a surprisingly low number of motor vehicles per square kilometer of populated area, about 47. Japan buries our sorry pedestrian asses with 190. Germany, Italy, Belgium, Iceland, South Korea, the Netherlands, the UK... they all have more than a hundred.

As for automobile emissions, the United States has this wonderful organization called the EPA. They like to rain on our parade every time someone comes out with a new 500hp supercar concept.

Another thing to look at, considering emissions and air pollution, is fossile-fuel consumption. First, coal. The US is number two in the world. China is number one. I should also mention that China is planning to build ~560 new coal plants by 2020. This will reverse the effects of the Kyoto by nearly five times over. Oh well. We tried, right?

The US does top the charts for Natural Gas (with nearly twice the consumption of the number two nation, Russia), and more NG plants are in the works here, as more coal plants are decomissioned. We also are the top user of Nuclear energy. France is right behind us

The US consumes 4 times as much oil per year as the runner-up (Japan). 19.7 million barrels a day, compared to 5.1 million.

Oh and the United States is spending 1.6% of it's GDP on pollution control. This is more than every european country combined. The only country spending more (as a percentage of GDP) is the Netherlands. We spend more money controlling our emissions and pollution than anyone in the world.


Edit: Oh, and I love how everyone is like "Bush didn't join Kyoto" as if it was only him that snubbed it. The Senate turned it down something like 95-0 in 1997. It was turned down again recently. The decision has never been up to Bush.
 
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Kibbles-N-Bits

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Dec 7, 1999
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Sorry, it took me a second to find the correct quote...
Although the United States signed the Kyoto Protocol, the treaty has not been ratified by the U.S. Senate. In July 1999, the United States Senate voted 95-0 to pass a resolution co-sponsored by Sen. Byrd (D-W.Va.) and Sen. Hagel (R-Neb.), which stated the Senate would not ratify the Protocol unless rapidly developing countries such as China were included in its requirements to reduce greenhouse gases. The Clinton Administration announced it would not send the treaty to the Senate for ratification.
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/278.html

The Senate declared that they would pass it only if the same restrictions or similiar restrictions be placed upon "Developing Nations"; among them some of the world's worst polluters, China, India, Pakistan, S. Korea, Mexico, etc.
 
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JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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Oh and the United States is spending 1.6% of it's GDP on pollution control. This is more than every european country combined. The only country spending more (as a percentage of GDP) is the Netherlands.
...

See ... we've got a right to complain about you as we still spend more than you do :p

I still don't see why your government doesn't 'want' to ratify the Kyoto-treaty, since your numbers show that it would be a piece of cake to do so.

And as for your "but other countries are worse"-excuse ... why not help them by showing how it is done ?