We whant pictures!!!!

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Jan 4, 2000
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UTFan.. thanks, but I havent replied to him since he left. Heck, I started to get off topic. /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif

Nathan - couple things
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>It's not that games don't support more than 4 million poly's... they just don't USE more than 4 million poly's (on screen at once). Get it right.
<LI>More polygons does not make a better game. I've seen some gorgeous looking games that played like crap - as a matter of fact, every time I go into EB and see a console - that's exactly what I see - nice picture, a little sluggish, and piss-poor gameplay.
<LI>You can use the
edit.gif
icon to delete your duplicate posts since you can't seem to figure out how to just hit a button once - oh, you're little controller must have been set to "automatic fire". /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif
</UL>

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P

Psychomoggiebagpuss

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Enough of this.......lets get back to dutch chicks again /~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif
 
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BloW__Smoke

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Damn is that child wanker nathan back again. who let him out again, i did tought we where now on the right track talking chick's and UT related stuf, not that stupid console talk.

Now he back at making me sick with console chit, and the fun part is, he MUST have an pc, how the hell is he otherwise on the net.

Can't his daddy take his PC away, obvious he hates pc's so much, he doesn't need one, and then are we liberated of this nonsens.



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BillyBadAss

Strong Cock of The North
May 25, 1999
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Here are the specs for the Voodoo 5 6000!Voodoo5™ 6000 AGP

The Voodoo5 6000 AGP from 3dfx represents the pinnacle of Voodoo5 technology. Taking advantage of the revolutionary scalable architecture of the 3dfx VSA-100 chip, the Voodoo 5 6000 AGP features four processors working together to be the world's first 3D accelerator to break the Gigapixel barrier. Clocking in at over 1.33 Gigapixels a second, the Voodoo5 6000 AGP can create breathtaking 3D worlds in vivid 32-bit color. Boasting state-of-the-art Real-Time Full-Scene HW Anti-Aliasing, the exclusive T-Buffer!" Digital Cinematic Effects engine, 2D resolutions as high as 2048x1536 and a whopping 128MB of graphics memory, the Voodoo5 6000 is the ultimate 2D/3D accelerator for the hard-core PC enthusiast.

*Note: Voodoo4 and Voodoo5 will be coming to a store near you in Spring 2000.

Can my PC support AGP?
Refresh Rates

General Features
Benefits

Fully integrated 128-bit 2D/3D/Video Accelerator
It's not just for gaming! Voodoo5 6000 AGP enables outstanding 2D and video applications too.

128 MB of Graphics Memory
No, we're not kidding. How about having enough graphics memory to handle 1600x1200, 32 bits per pixel, with full-scene hardware anti-aliasing enabled?

1.32 to 1.47 Gigapixels Per Second Fill Rate
Not kidding about this one, either. The first gigapixel board delivers frame rates beyond belief. Virtually all games are limited by fill rate at resolutions of 1024x768 and above so the higher your fill rate the faster your game will perform.

Real-time Full-Scene HW Anti-Aliasing
Removes annoying jaggies and flashing objects from the image to dramatically improve the visual quality of any title, new or old.

T-Buffer™ Digital Cinematic Effect: Motion blur
Can be used to smooth motion to improve image quality or to exaggerate motion for special effects.

T-Buffer™ Digital Cinematic Effect: Depth of Field Blur
Enhances reality by rendering a scene as if viewed through a real lens. Enables artistic depth of field effects often used in cinema, such as blurring all but the most important objects in a scene.

T-Buffer™ Digital Cinematic Effect: Soft Shadows
Adds soft edges to shadows, giving them a much more realistic appearance.

T-Buffer™ Digital Cinematic Effect: Soft Reflections
Enables realistic reflections from semi-gloss surfaces like polished wood or stone and stainless steel.

FXT1™ and DirectX® Texture Compression
Dramatically reduces the size of texture images with no loss in visual quality; higher frame rates and better image quality. VSA-100 supports all five DXTC compression modes. Texture compression is critical for use of 2048x2048 and 32-bit textures.

8-bit Palletized Textures
The most widely used form of texture compressio. As with FXT1, palletized textures enable higher frame rates and enhanced image quality. Graphics cards that do not support palletized textures often experience severe game compatibility problems.

32-bit Rendering
Supports the highest possible image quality for the latest titles.

32-bit Textures
Allows use of the highest quality artwork seen in today's titles.

2k x 2k Textures
Allows you to enjoy the full impact of the most detailed artwork used by game developers; larger textures enable more complex, more stunning images.

24-bit Floating Point Depth Buffer (Z or W)
Virtually eliminates "Z aliasing," or having surfaces that should be visible being occluded and surfaces that should be occluded being visible.

8-bit Stencil Buffer
Improves image quality and realism by supporting a technique widely used by 3D content developers to create complex shapes such as shadows.

350MHz RAMDAC
Allows users to run at insane resolutions and incredible refresh rate --2048x1536 at 85Hz for example.

The industry's most complete API support: DirectX, OpenGL, and Glide
Assures the industry's highest title compatibility.

DVD hardware assist: planar to packed-pixel conversion
Assists DVD titles in running at 30fps without dropped frames.

Windows 95, 98 and NT 4.0
Allows you to run the Voodoo5 6000 AGP with all popular operating systems.





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fastson

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Just for fun I thought I’d ask you boys in here how many of you are going to buy one of the next gen. Consoles? Like the X-Box (silly name) PS2, DC or the Dolphin? I am thinking about buying the PS2 and the X-Box (Ill wait a little here because to see how many games get developed first). I wouldn’t want to miss all the great games there are developed for the consoles. I admit to that. But I think that the consoles never can take-over in the First Person Shooter world. I mean how the hell are they going to control a FPS fella with a control????
/~unreal/ubb/html/biggrin.gif

Here are the votes!

PS2 1
Dreamcast 0
Dolphin 0
X-Box 1

(If you vote PLEAZE update the voting list) Thanks!



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Rooster

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Well, my wife seemed somewhat receptive to the idea of playing sports games on a console (cause she beat me on an football game on the computer once).

If I WERE to get a console, it would probably be the PS2 - but the only things that would get played is whatever my kids like and sports for me. X-Box is going to be sorely under powered (CPU wise) when it comes out. I've always been a big supporter of Sony electronics. And I've always disliked Nintendo (Dolphin).

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fastson

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Common guys!! Do you really think I am fastson??? That makes me sad… /~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif ! I didn’t relies I was hyping up the PlayS.2.! If I did I am sorry. I wouldn’t trade my PC for anything. It might be slow but it still works. And it works great with UT and a console couldn’t replace my PC. Super (ST) Trooper who is a fat *** ? Fastson ihope! *LOL*

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Stamp

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Quote from Intel site : "The optimal number of frames per second is 30; any lower and the animation looks jerky and unnatural instead of fluid and smooth. In general, higher frame rates mean smoother game play, but there is a limit. Frame rates higher than 60 fps are unnecessary since the human eye can’t perceive them."

Some arithmetic :

1024 * 768 = 786 432 pixels on the screen
786 432 * 60 fps = 47 185 920

So in ideal circumstances the human eye can only perceive 47 million pixels per second. The minimum number of points in a polygon is 3 and therefor the smallest polygon that can be rendered consists of 3 pixels (but who would render a screen full of 3 pixel triangles 60 times a second?)
So the theoretical limit to the maximum amount of perceivable polygons is about 16 million. (47 million divided by 3)

So tell me, why would any game developer want to make a game with more than 4 million polygons per second?

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[This message has been edited by Stamp (edited 03-17-2000).]
 

spyder913

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Stamp what gave you the crazy idea that your eye has a maximum PIXEL limit? (oh and by the way guys, the human eye needs between 24-30 fps to depict smooth movement)

The problem with computer games is that the frame rate is not constant.. fps ratings need an average and a standard deviation too... then we'd know how often it is near the mean. 60fps while running down a corridor won't do you any good if it drops to 10 when in a firefight.

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Stamp

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Was I a bit obtuse there? Sorry.
I meant that the eye is perceiveing 47 million pixels per second maximum at those settings (ie. 1024x768x60).

Putting it another way: 1024*768= 786 432 pixels actually on the screen, smallest possible polygon is 3 pixels, so the maximum number of polygons that can actually be put on the screen is 786432/3 = 262 144 (this would of course entirely fill the screen). Do this 60 times a second and you get 15 728 640, or as close as spit to 16 million polygons being rendered every second.

Hope that explains my question more clearly, why would any game developer want to exceed 4 million poly's per sec?
 

nathan

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This might make it more fun..
psx2chart1.jpg
This graph is just of the CPU and not the Extra Vector units. With them it could TRIPLE. Go here for the link to it http://www.ps2web.com/hardware/tech-11-5.shtml Now the PSX2 GS has been hardly been used and the
Co-processor1: FPU (FMAC x 1, FDIV x 1), Micro Memory (I:4KB D:4KB)
Co-processor2: VU0 (FMAC x 4, FDIV x 1), Micro Memory (I:4KB D:4KB)
Vector Processing Unit VU1 (FMAC x 5, FDIV x
There co-processors and are not NEEDED in making Games. They Have'nt been used YET..
When there are u will be seeing some Wicked ****.
Psx2 allready has games rendering around 9 million polygons and its just been released in japan. The psx2 is Upgradable. So theres nothing stopping sony or anyother developers from making a Graphics enhancer to compete with the X-box or PCs..
PS, U guys ARE SO LAME.. To argue about My speeling HAHAHAH man what losers.. Ohh no i'm not spelling probley.. ohh no what shall i do. IDIOTS
just read
TOKYO, March 2, 1999 – Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. is pleased to announce the co-development with Toshiba Corp. of the 128 bit CPU ("EE" or "Emotion Engine ™") for use in the next generation of PlayStationÒ . In order to process massive multimedia information at the fastest possible speeds, data bus, cache memory as well as all registers are 128 bits; this is integrated on a single chip LSI together with the state of the art 0.18 micron process technology. The development of a full 128 bit CPU is the first of its kind in the world.

Not only will this new CPU have application for games, but it will be the core media processor for future digital entertainment applications, and has a vastly superior floating point calculation capability compared to the latest personal computers. The new CPU incorporates two 64 bit integer units (IU) with a 128 bit SIMD multimedia command unit, two independent floating point vector calculation units (VU0, VU1), an MPEG 2 decoder circuit (Image Processing Unit/IPU) and high performance DMA controllers onto one silicon chip. The massive combined performance of this CPU permits complicated physical calculation, NURBS curved surface generation and 3D geometric transformations, which are difficult to perform in real time with PC CPUs performed at high speeds.

In addition, by processing the data at 128 bits on one chip, it is possible to process and transfer massive volumes of multimedia data. CPUs on conventional PCs have a basic data structure of 64 bits, with only 32 bits on recent game consoles. The main memory supporting the high speed CPU uses the Direct RambusÒ DRAM in two channels to achieve a 3.2 GB/second bus bandwidth. This equates to four times the performance of the latest PCs that are built on the PC-100 architecture.

By incorporating the MPEG 2 decoder circuitry on one chip, it is now possible to simultaneously process high-resolution 3D graphics data at the same time as high quality DVD images. The combination of the two allows the introduction of a new approach to digital entertainment and real-time graphics and audio processing.

With a floating point calculation performance of 6.2 GFLOPS/second, the overall calculation performance of this new CPU matches that of a super computer. When this is applied to the processing of geometric and perspective transformations normally used in the calculation of 3D computer graphics (3DCG), the peak calculation performance reaches 66 million polygons per second. This performance is comparable with that of high-end graphics workstations (GWS) used in motion picture production.

March 2, 1999 – Sony Computer Entertainment has developed the Graphics Synthesizer for the next generation PlayStation® incorporating a massively parallel rendering engine that contains a 2,560 bit wide data bus that is 20 times the size of leading PC-based graphics accelerators. Very high pixel fill rates and drawing performance is achieved only through the use of embedded DRAM process technology pioneered by SCE for use in advanced graphics technology.

The current PlayStation introduced the concept of the Graphics Synthesizer via the real-time calculation and rendering of a 3D object. This new GS rendering processor is the ultimate incarnation of this concept – delivering unrivaled graphics performance and capability. The rendering function was enhanced to generate image data that supports NTSC/PAL television, High Definition Digital TV and VESA output standards. The quality of the resulting screen image is comparable to movie-quality 3D graphics in real time.

In the design of graphics systems, the rendering capability is defined by the memory bandwidth between the pixel engine and the video memory. Conventional systems use external VRAM reached via an off-chip bus that limits the total performance of the system. However in the case of the new GS, there is a 48-gigabyte memory access bandwidth achieved via the integration of the pixel logic and the video memory on a single high performance chip. This allows orders of magnitude greater pixel fill rate performance compared to today’s best PC-based graphics accelerators.

When rendering small polygons, the peak drawing capacity is 75 million polygons per second and the system can render 150 million particles per second. With this large drawing capability, it is possible to render a movie-quality image. With Z buffering, textures, lighting and alpha blending (transparency), a sustained rate of 20 million polygons per second can be drawn continuously.

This new architecture can also execute recursive multi-pass rendering processing and filter operations at a very fast speed without the assistance of the main CPU or main bus access. In the past, this level of real-time performance was only achieved when using very expensive, high performance, dedicated graphics workstations. However, with the design of the new Graphics Synthesizer, this high quality image is now available for in-home computer entertainment applications. This will help accelerate the convergence of movies, music and computer technology into a new form of digital entertainment.

Graphics Synthesizer – Features and General Specifications:
GS Core: Parallel Rendering Processor with embedded DRAM
Clock Frequency: 150 MHz
No. of Pixel Engines: 16 (in Parallel)
Embedded DRAM: 4 MB of multi-port DRAM (Synced at 150MHz)
Total Memory Bandwidth: 48 gigabytes per second
Combined Internal Data Bus Bandwidth: 2,560 bit
Read: 1,024 bit
Write: 1,024 bit
Texture: 512 bit
Display Color Depth: 32 bit (RGBA: 8 bits each)
Z Buffering: 32 bit
Rendering Functions: Texture Mapping, Bump Mapping, Fogging, Alpha Blending, Bi- and Tri-Linear Filtering, MIPMAP, Anti-aliasing, Multi-pass Rendering

Rendering Performance
Pixel Fill Rate: 2.4 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer and Alphablend enabled), 1.2 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer, Alpha and Texture)
Particle Drawing Rate: 150 million/sec
polygon), 50 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z and A), 30 million/sec (50 pixel triangle with Z and A), 25 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z, A and T)
Polygon Drawing Rate: 75 million/sec (small Sprite Drawing Rate: 18.75 million (8 x 8 pixels)
Display Output
NTSC/PAL
Digital TV (DTV)
VESA (maximum 1280 x 1024 pixels)

Silicon Process Technology: 0.25 4-level metal
Total Number of Transistors: 43 million
Die Size: 279 mm2
Package Type: 384 pin BGA

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[This message has been edited by nathan (edited 03-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by nathan (edited 03-17-2000).]
 

nathan

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Sorry about repeated replys.. My com is SOOO slow cause of my server.. I am getting broadband in 2 weeks. Downloading at 500k a sec. instead of 2.2k

[This message has been edited by nathan (edited 03-17-2000).]
 

Stamp

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I presume all this viterol wasn't aimed at answering my query, was it? If so, then it hasn't.

Links to Tech rumours and psuedo-data about what this or that could/will do against old technology does not tell me how or why a game developer would want to design and develope a game that puts more poly's on the screen than there are pixels or how this is physically possible.

Now if you were to post a link to one of these games that has 9 million polys then I could go find out from them how they do it. All I've been able to find so far is PC games that have been ported, reports of Playstation games that won't work on PS2 and further reports that the PS2 DVD is not working. Admittedly I haven't had time to dig very deep.
 
B

BloW__Smoke

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Just read the topic in the news on UP main page.

First UT will not be released until (if the'r gonna released that is) the end of this year, second you'll need so mutch additional hardware (modem, harddrive, controllers) that i'm not shure that a console stay's a console but is beeing rebuild as an poor man's PC.
And this is not my thought, but stated by sony itself.

and if after a year you can at last play UT, i think you fishing behind the net AGAIN (heheh) course the PC gamers already stept over to a UT2 or Q4 of what ever, and the UTers on the PC are such diehard (2years experience) no consoler (who's still got to learn online games) are wasted as hell, and complain that's it not a good game.

Hence try as an moderate UTer or even as an GODLIKE utter to play q2 or sin, those guy's playing still those games are so trained they reached the master status, and there you'll want to play between. Hope you like to respawn.

So maybe next year when all the hardware is available for a console you maybe play online with PC gamers, but still it wil be an unfair game to the consolers.

And about the chips, well difference is, the consoles NEED state of the art hardware, course in their livetime they cannot be upgraded, PC's can so if my Viper V770 is SO old (like my old voodoo1) i buy a new one.
(not possible with a console), if i want a faster CPU, or a PC with 2 to 4 CPU's, just buy is, and again not possible with consoles.

And you's spec indicates that the console has an extra chip, and the PC you tested are single CPU's p2/p3, try the test again with an dual xeon p800 or an quad p2-400 (cheaper), the console wil look like a turtle.

What i mean is, you are tring to compare an ferrari streetcar agains an formula one car.
or apples with pears, the is no comperision, course the system works different.
The best way to end this pointless discussion is to wait till next year, reinstall the old UT (hence i play by then UT3 when ut is released for a console) and kick you'r butts.


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Rooster

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I wish I had nathan's idea of bandwidth. 500k/sec... Umm.. unless you're getting a T3 to your house (highly unlikely) - you'll never even get close to that speed. The highest you'll get (with 2way cable) is about 360k/s - that's at 3MBit/sec download - and that's REALLY RARE. Most likely you'll be around 180k/sec. even then you wont get the most out of it because half the sites out there will only give you about 50k/sec.

You're living in a dream world nathan. Must be nice. My advice - don't leave. You couldn't handle it out here in the real world.

And yes, you look and sound like a complete moron because you have trouble forming basic sentences or even spelling words over 4 letters. Get an education! You're hurting my brain!

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Rooster

Local Legend
Jan 4, 2000
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Oh yes, Spyder, you are correct - there is no limit to the number of pixels the human eye can see. As well, just because you can't SEE the polygons on the screen, doesn't mean they aren't drawn (probably where most of the PS2 poly's are.. behind other poly's... what a waste).

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Sulla

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One of those two idiots mentioned that PCs will not eclipse the PS2 for another 10 years in graphics, etc.... Now 10 years ago, Doom was not even out, nor was Wolfenstein 3D. Do you mean to tell me that in 10 years the PS2 will still be on top with its current graphics configuration? Not to mention the fact that the developer of the Emotion engine is already planning on releasing the new chip within the next 3 years.....if I had a 10 year break I would not even *think* about a new chip for another 5 or so years.....

screenshot1.jpg


PCs looked like this 10 years ago.....

ridge_15.jpg


Will PCs look like this 10 years into the future????? Just think about it....

Stupid dumb a$$ Sony fany boys seem to feel the need to pollute every medium they come across. Listen kids, take your little uber console and play some games on your nasty a$$ res TV. When 2007 comes around and you have HDTV then you can see what your little PS2 is all about. Until then please piss off.

[This message has been edited by Sulla (edited 03-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sulla (edited 03-17-2000).]
 
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