Unofficial technical weapon question forum.

[jaunty]

It's the concept of inertia. The SMLE family are rather light rifles (Got a Mk V myself), and the recoil generated by a british .303 is enough to get them moving rather easily. The Bren being mostly metal and considerably heavier though, needs more energy to get it moving and recoiling. Once it does get moving however, it's much harder to slow down. Basically, it's the fact that it's so heavy that reduces recoil.

 

[spm1138]

What interweb forum would that be? And yes, it is very possible to fire a BREN from the hip.

The Gathering forums for Hidden & Dangerous 2. They've announced an expansion glee and we were discussing weapons to be included. I said the Bren should be fireable from the hip (at the moment you can't fire/reload it all unless you are prone) and then this bloke started carrying on about how it wasn't physically possible.

As well as a number of write-ups for Victoria Crosses, photos of people firing Brens from the hip and quotes from a couple of books I thought it'd be handy if I could ask here and see if anyone had hands-on with the Bren because I remembered Tiffy mentioning the 7.62 version and because there are loads of gun nuts here.

Thanks for the info.

Hopefully they will de-useless the Bren in the next patch or the expansion at least.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- The BREN has this neat, slow recoil impetus. It's tough to describe, but the old beast chugs. Compared to a MG42 from a shouldered position (Not as easily held as the BREN) it's wonderful.

Reloading from all but shouldered is easy. Consider the sling. This crosses over the opposite shoulder of the hand holding the pistol grip.

With an empty mag from say, the high assault hold, one would pinch the buttstock with the right armpit, and maintain tension witht he right hand on the pistol grip. With your left hand thumb down, you'd make a sweeping grab along the top of the reciever. The mag release is VERY hard to miss, and the mag is easily "swept" off the gun.
I won't go into a debate about "dropped" and "saved" mags, so let's assume it's in the dirt.
You'd reach to the mag carrier, pull out another mag, and nose it into the reciever, and pop it back. then grabbing the forehandle (attached to the barrel, and locked in the down position) you'd maintain forward pressure, while the right hand pulls the charging handle back, and pushes it forward. Now, you've another 30 (32) rounds of .303 fun..

The change for the 100 round pan type drum is very similar, though not as quick due to it's tounge like forward engagement. Slows things down a bit.

I've owned a few class III/NFA firearms, but the BREN is simply one of my favorites. If I could own only ONE NFA weapon, it'd be a MkII BREN.

Meplat-

 

[Zundfolge]

Last time I was out at Dragonman's (local range that allows class III fun) there was a couple of guys with a BREN ... damn it looked fun

I think a surpressed 10/22 rifle or MkII pistol will be my first class III weapon, but someday I hope to be able to afford some full auto toys.

 

[jaunty]

Jaunty- The BREN has this neat, slow recoil impetus. It's tough to describe, but the old beast chugs. Compared to a MG42 from a shouldered position (Not as easily held as the BREN) it's wonderful.

There's nothing special about recoil management in a Bren. It just has a low rate of fire; 500rpm cyclic, as compared to the 1200rpm cyclic of the MG42. For comparison's sake, the M249 is 900rpm cyclic with the gas apature set to the factory standard. The machanism of the Bren is just a simple tilting bolt blowback design, with a barrel that recoils very slightly. The action is disigned to reduce recoil, but it has little effect in that department. The reason the Bren is so controllable (by machine gun standards) is its low rate of fire.

EDIT: Also, one of the VERY few things that'll cause a stoppage on early model .303 Brens is poor loading. British military doctrine of the times only allowed loading the magazines up to 28 rounds, and even then they emphasized care in loading. Just a thought...

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty-Ohh, playing with ammo, and the gas setting one can wring near 800RPM from the BREN. (100Rd pan, and MkVIIIZ ball).

The barrel does not recoil. It's fixed to the reciever via the change latch. (Although the gas piston/carrier masses more than some handguns. It's got a lot of big lovely chunks of British steel)

The stated ROF of the '42 has always amused me. Most will deliver 900+, but getting one to sustain 1200 for the duration of a belt is very challenging. Ideally, with very good lubricants, a "balanced" gun and hot reliable ammo, 1,000 sustained might be possible.. As a second example, I offer the Colt made "MG-40", the aircraft variant of the M1919 Browning. The two are literally not the same weapon, sharing only a basic design. the 1919 is anything but ammo sensitive, and the '40 absolutely MUST have consistent, reliable ammo to deliver anywhere near it's potential 1400RPM. (Let alone function..)

ROF's on automatic weapons are very prone to change, depending on a large number of variables.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

Jaunty-Ohh, playing with ammo, and the gas setting one can wring near 800RPM from the BREN. (100Rd pan, and MkVIIIZ ball).

The barrel does not recoil. It's fixed to the reciever via the change latch. (Although the gas piston/carrier masses more than some handguns. It's got a lot of big lovely chunks of British steel)

The stated ROF of the '42 has always amused me. Most will deliver 900+, but getting one to sustain 1200 for the duration of a belt is very challenging. Ideally, with very good lubricants, a "balanced" gun and hot reliable ammo, 1,000 sustained might be possible.. As a second example, I offer the Colt made "MG-40", the aircraft variant of the M1919 Browning. The two are literally not the same weapon, sharing only a basic design. the 1919 is anything but ammo sensitive, and the '40 absolutely MUST have consistent, reliable ammo to deliver anywhere near it's potential 1400RPM. (Let alone function..)

ROF's on automatic weapons are very prone to change, depending on a large number of variables.

Meplat-

...you're an idiot.

The MG42 is 1200rpm CYCLIC. That's not the same as 1200rpm practical. If you put 1200 rounds through an MG42 in one minute, you'll regret it when you're sitting there with an oxy torch trying to cut molten barrel out of the holes in the heat shield. Cyclic rate of fire is what a weapon is mechanicaly capable of, not what you should be firing.

Practical rate of fire is what you don't want to exceed if you plan on keeping a healthy weapon. See my above XM8/M4 MWS comparison post re: practical rates of fire. (50 rounds for the M4, 85 rounds for the XM8) Both of them are far more capable of that. The M16 does something like 800rpm, but that doesn't mean you can or should fire 800 rounds in one minute. Doing so would be, as we say, "really, really, really, fucking stupid."

As for the Bren's recoiling barrel, I trust world.guns.ru more than you, so I'll stick to their version of events.

Technically, all BREN machineguns are gas operated, tilting bolt locked, air cooled, magazine fed machine guns. The barrel, gas action and bolt assembly with bipod can recoil slightly inside the receiver body to reduce felt recoil.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- Sorry you feel that way. I actually have practical experience with these weapons, instead of referring to semi accurate translated sites. Guns.Ru is quite erronious in this description.(Try "Janes" or "Small Arms of The World") The Bipod does not recoil. Nor does the barrel. I know this how? Simple. I've had, not one, but a number of real, functioning MkI, and MkII BREN guns apart. I can describe the field strip to you without looking it up. I know how they function, how misloading the magazine can possibly induce a stoppage, and even things the sites, and books won't tell you, such as how to load the 100 round drum. (Feel free to look, as this may have changed)

Referring to my comments on stated ROF, I still stand behind my statements. (And no, running a '42 at even near it's achieveable ROF will not cause a failure as you have described. Ask how I know this.)

You should consider the comments,and input of those who may have some actual, practical experience with these tools, before so hastily applying the label "idiot" to them.If I make a mistake in a post, I'll admit it. I have not in the above.

Not to sound arrogant, but I'll bet I've fired, and studied more automatic weapons first hand than you've seen in any book, or on the internet. Working in the NFA industry allows one that.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

Jaunty- Sorry you feel that way. I actually have practical experience with these weapons, instead of referring to semi accurate translated sites. Guns.Ru is quite erronious in this description.(Try "Janes" or "Small Arms of The World") The Bipod does not recoil. Nor does the barrel. I know this how? Simple. I've had, not one, but a number of real, functioning MkI, and MkII BREN guns apart. I can describe the field strip to you without looking it up. I know how they function, how misloading the magazine can possibly induce a stoppage, and even things the sites, and books won't tell you, such as how to load the 100 round drum. (Feel free to look, as this may have changed)

Referring to my comments on stated ROF, I still stand behind my statements. (And no, running a '42 at even near it's achieveable ROF will not cause a failure as you have described. Ask how I know this.)

You should consider the comments,and input of those who may have some actual, practical experience with these tools, before so hastily applying the label "idiot" to them.If I make a mistake in a post, I'll admit it. I have not in the above.

Not to sound arrogant, but I'll bet I've fired, and studied more automatic weapons first hand than you've seen in any book, or on the internet. Working in the NFA industry allows one that.

Of course an MG42 barrel won't melt. It's called hyperbole, look it up. And have you honestly sat there and closely watched a Bren's barrel as it fires? Because seriously, we're talking a matter of millimeters here, not like 10 or 15 centimeters. It's a really small amount. With the speed that everything happens with inside a gun, can you honestly say that it doesn't happen so fast that your eye can't see it? Next you'll tell me that just because you can't see a bullet fly, it doesn't. Bullets just magically appear near the target, am i rite?

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- *Laughs* Yes, I have watched it. Kind of tough to not see the barrel when you're firing it.(the front sight being attached to it and all.) Look, I'll try and get some nice digital images of the MkII I play with, and post em here. The barrel moves only when you have decided to change it. Not when it's firing. Sound good?

To elaborate, the '42 when overheated simply says" I'm done" and puts the squeeze on the front barrel bushing. A prudent gunner in a combat situation would not allow this to occur, but a civillian owner burning up a lot of 7.92MM surplus, who has seven or so parts kits and enough spare barrels to outfit the Waffen SS cares not. Hopefully, the gun stops in a fully locked condition, saving the above owner from having to replace the feed cover, and probably the extractor. But sometimes it does'nt, and there's a frightful little boom, and considerable cursing.

It takes a LOT to run a gun to destruction. usually all that suffers is the barrel, and one's pocketbook for all tha ammo used.

Meplat-

 

[Zundfolge]

So Jaunty, where does an Aussie get to play with machine guns and such? Are there machine gun clubs down there? Or do you have to join the military?

It takes a LOT to run a gun to destruction. usually all that suffers is the barrel, and one's pocketbook for all tha ammo used.

Mostly pocketbook ... a buddy of mine found it was cheaper to buy the .22 conversion kit for his UZI then buy all that 9mm (even Winchester White Box from Walmart isn't cheap enough for an afternoon with a full auto).

I can only imagine what an afternoon of full auto .303 would cost.

 

[Meplat]

Zund- I'll bet Jaunty is Aussie military. Just a guess.

Anyhow, I was'nt a fan of the .22 kit for the Uzi, as it did'nt work well in mine. May have been a specefic case, but I ended up sticking with the nine parts.

.303 Brit was VERY inexpensive til recently. I was buying Mk VII ball for as cheap as 6.00/50 rounds. Considering the number of Commonwealth firearms I seem to have gathered, I bought a LOT. By far, my favorite was the HXP stamped MkVIIIZ. Though it kicked brutally in the tiny little Ross carbine I have, it was a dream in a BREN, Vickers, or Lewis. (Though the friends Lewis I fired tended to spit primers, and gave me a bloody schnozz for my efforts.)

Like any other hobby, NFA weapons consume time and money in large quantities. I'm slowly moving toward "classic" (WW1 and earlier) Commonwealth firearms..

By far my absolute worst was the "S.P." crater shoot near Flagstaff. Three full cases of really excellent Malaysian M193 ball, in a weekend. Through two rifles. One, a Costa Mesa AR-18, the other a Colt R6700CH. Neither suffered a single stoppage, hiccup, anything. Good ammo, good weapons, and me feeling like I'd given a bottle of 40 year old single malt scotch to a drunk.*Laughs*

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

So Jaunty, where does an Aussie get to play with machine guns and such? Are there machine gun clubs down there? Or do you have to join the military?


Mostly pocketbook ... a buddy of mine found it was cheaper to buy the .22 conversion kit for his UZI then buy all that 9mm (even Winchester White Box from Walmart isn't cheap enough for an afternoon with a full auto).

I can only imagine what an afternoon of full auto .303 would cost.

You have no idea how hard it is for a civillian to even get his grubby mits on a Lee-Enfield. I only have mine because my grandfather "acquired it" (that's all he'd tell me), and gave it to me because he was convinced if anybody else in the family got it, they'd sell it or turn it in.

My experience with MGs and whatnot (F88, M2HB. Others too, but these are the only two I recall mentioning any time recently.) comes from the week I spent with the Australian Army, on what we call work experience. Basically, every 10th, 11th and 12th grade student is entitled to take a week off to go and spend at a profession they're interested in. I like the sounds of "welfare," so I went to an army base instead of pursuing a career I'm actually interested in. It was basically a week of running obstacle courses, playing with guns and various munitions. I even loaded a field gun.

But no, I'm not military. Not yet, at least. I do have plans to enlist in the Army Reserve, but it's not like I'm rushing into it. Especially with talk of a replacement for the AUG on the horizon. I think I'll bide my time on that one. I'd much rather the uneducated retard next to me be using a G36 than an AUG.

As for gun clubs here, take your pick: Rifle or Pistol. You need to be a member of one of the two to get a license based on "sporting" grounds. (Hence my application for a rifle license based on "conservation" grounds - they let me keep a rifle so I can kill feral cats).

Semi automatic pistols are about to become very illegal here, too. Anything with a barrel shorter than 120mm is out of the question. That means things like the Hi-Power and Glock 17 are a no-no. All because some guy who can't speak english went and got a pistol license and killed two people. Even needed an interpreter at his court case. The clincher is that he was on a student visa. (I guess "responsible licensing" didn't work .) If I were you, I'd be buying stock in any Australian based revolver manufacturer. I have a feeling revolvers are going to be selling quite well here soon, though I am looking into a nice Beretta 92FS or 96FS of questionable legality.

.303 ammunition is relatively cheap here, since .303 rifles are relatively popular. Ex-Army Lee-Enfields go rather cheaply, so most people buy them as a first gun, and that keeps the ammunition prices down.

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty- You missed out big time. The Commonwealth FAL is in my opinion the finest MBR created. It's not a "mouse gun" and it's definitely not an easy carry, but the old bitch worked when needed. I built L1A1's til the odius laws in the U.S. ,made that illegal. Soon though when it expires I'll whip up a nice C1A1, and give the SMLE's a rest.

You ought to give thought to getting some experience with opfor weapons. While the AK/AKM, and the RPD did not impress me, the PKM frankly scared the hell out of me. It's THAT good. Imagine a M-60 massed beltfed, with the reliability of a BREN, and the accuracy of a good bolt action. I may have beeen shooting an exceptionally well made example, but it definitelty left an impression.

As an aside,if you get said Beretta, you have a source for magazines?

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

There's no such thing as a "commonwealth FAL." We all had our own versions. In Britain, it was the L1A1, a FAL with the auto setting removed, and the SUIT added. Here in australia, it was the SLR (Self Loading Rifle), a FAL with the auto removed, and our own custom made furniture (secially formulated nylon so it could better handle the Australian heat).

I don't buy guns unless they come with at least two magazines. Being of the fickle taste that I am, they're usually long sold before the magazines are worn out. Turns out the 92FS will be legal here under the new laws (125mm barrel), so I might go through the pain of getting a pistol license. I dunno though. Black market prices are so much better.

 

[OICW]

jaunty- I thought the barrel length limit was 100mm long, not 120-125mm?

 

[Meplat]

Jaunty-*shrugs* "Commonwealth", or "Inch pattern" is how they're known here. Yes, there's diffrences, but not as major as say the variations between say, the L1A1 SLR and an Izzie HBAR.

For a handgun, I like having a minimum of three, with an optimal of nine magazines. Why? Some of the autos I have are elderly (to be polite) and while the 1911 mag may not mind being left loaded for 50 years, I'm not sure a P-38, or P08 would be so tolerant. Having nearly 30 1911 mags is the result of this paranoia. (Something like ten for each Colt..)

Yes, I do the same with AR-15, and SMLE mags.

Meplat-

 

[jaunty]

Last I heard, 120mm was the minimum barrel length for a semi auto to be legal in any Australian state.

When I had my Glock 33 (.357sig sub-compact), one of the magazines stayed loaded the entire time. Something like 8 months. Never emptied, never cleaned, nothing. Only once, the weekend before I got rid of it, did I fire off all the spare rounds I had.

 

[SaraP]

It's the concept of inertia. The SMLE family are rather light rifles (Got a Mk V myself), and the recoil generated by a british .303 is enough to get them moving rather easily. The Bren being mostly metal and considerably heavier though, needs more energy to get it moving and recoiling. Once it does get moving however, it's much harder to slow down. Basically, it's the fact that it's so heavy that reduces recoil.

Heavy weight is exactly why the Bren and BAR were reasonably effective automatic rifles, whereas the M14, G3, FN FAL, etc. are completely ineffective automatic rifles even though they fire a less powerful round. The 7.62x51mm battle rifles are simply too light to stabilize the recoil of such potent ammo – the BAR’s a good forty pounds loaded, wheras an M14’s just fourteen.

 

[spm1138]

I have another WW2 question - does anyone know of any German sound suppressed weapons?

I can't find a bloody thing on them on the interweb.

I read about a kit for the K98 somewhere but googling turns up nothing (not even a book title).

BTW, the book I have says the BAR is 20.59lbs loaded with bipod. 40lbs is really heavy. You'd get a hernia carrying something like that around for too long.