Trusted Platform Module == End of Game Piracy?

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Mr.CrackPot

New Member
Jul 23, 2005
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I gotta say, this whole TPM business stinks of old horse****. I've heard it all before but this has got to be the most draconian. I've been a *cough* free *cough* user of microsoft products for as long as I remember. Vista I never got, I'm still running on XP.

As soon as it becomes near impossible for me to run those same products, I'm just gonna go and say screw microsoft! I'm just waiting for that day when I'm forced to go linux.

Really the only reason I havent gone linux yet is because of driver-related issues among other problems with software that I regularly use not working so well with linux...

Oh and I forgot, has the ut3 linux client been released yet? I really don't remember.
 

nomadicus

New Member
Apr 2, 2008
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Trusted computing, like DRM, is a non-issue with a little know-how and some willpower.
Agreed. But no one (here?) knows know exactly why . . . at least they do not teach correct OS-hardware architecture for a secure computing environment (take a stroll down memory lane to the 1960's and visit Multics).

H3ll. AMD didn't even put the no-execute bit in their processors until 2005 (IIRC) and Intel never would have if AMD didn't. That was a half-assed attempt at correcting hardware-OS interaction. Still missing the kernel rw bit. Trusted computing will always be broken due to these flaws. Windows and *nix will never be secure without it and a re-arch (i.e., multimode).

Point is, these marketing geniuses will never create a secure hardware-OS foundation when 99.9% of the techies out there have no clue how one could be created in the first place.

This kind of technology garbage will always be broken.
 
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nomadicus

New Member
Apr 2, 2008
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But since windows and *nix don't implement multimodes, they can't have true security.
As I said, the hardware-OS foundation is weak. DRM can't be implemented until multimode OS'es, etc. are implemented correctly first. If implemented, DRM would stand a much better chance of not being broken . . . at least not as easily.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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but they're already sneaking in TPM-chips onto your motherboards.
My laptop (Asus F3SV) has one already.
Luckily it is not part of the bios just yet, but once it is in there then switching to Linux or any other OS is not even an option as the system will refuse the OS at the core.

Developing programs for Windows is slowly becoming impossible for amateur developers as not many can afford to buy the certificate required for Vista to trust their programs.
Luckily the OS allows users to override that decision, but once TPM becomes part of the system that choice will be gone.

Consider how few people ever protested and avoided :
= XP and Vista with its basic on-line activation
= Steam

The average user has already decided that he/she will use such systems provided there's a nice carrot that hides the issues such systems have.

Speaking of Steam/Blizzard vs Bushnell ... how come people are willing to trust Valve/Blizzard and they don't trust Bushnell ?
Both are doing exactly the same thing (enforcing complete and total control over the use of their software on your system).
Yet everyone appears to be thanking Valve for introducing a system with the exact same results as the TPM-based system that Bushnell wants.

The only difference is that Steam is pure software at the moment and for some reason gamers trust Valve to provide an 'unlock' (despite the fact that they did not do so when they replaced their previous DRM-mechanism with Steam).
I predict that once Valve decides to kill Steam it will not offer an unlock/crack for their existing games.
Instead you will be forced to upgrade to their new system if you want to play any of the games you've bought from them in the past ...
 
Uh, HELLO? You haven't "owned" computer games for years now. Licenses? Remember? You know those boxes with the ten tons of text everyone clicks through? They're contracts that you agree to that say basically that you do not own the game, you are given a license to use it. Hell, UT way back in 1999 may say that (I don't remember, I installed it years ago now.)

If it doesn't "feel like" it belongs to you, it's because it hasn't belonged to you for years now.


The same can be said for pay to play mmoRPG's and windows live.
Hell i spent 250+ monies on wow collectors edition and the collectors editon of burning crusade and over the two years i actually played the game it cost me an extra 500+ monies just to enjoy it ... once morning i woke up and thought bollocks to that it doesnt seem right to spend that much money to play a game that i have already payed for to be able to use it in the first place.

blah blah blah ramble
 

MonsOlympus

Active Member
May 27, 2004
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The average user has already decided that he/she will use such systems provided there's a nice carrot that hides the issues such systems have.

Speaking of Steam/Blizzard vs Bushnell ... how come people are willing to trust Valve/Blizzard and they don't trust Bushnell ?
Both are doing exactly the same thing (enforcing complete and total control over the use of their software on your system).
Yet everyone appears to be thanking Valve for introducing a system with the exact same results as the TPM-based system that Bushnell wants.

The only difference is that Steam is pure software at the moment and for some reason gamers trust Valve to provide an 'unlock' (despite the fact that they did not do so when they replaced their previous DRM-mechanism with Steam).
I predict that once Valve decides to kill Steam it will not offer an unlock/crack for their existing games.
Instead you will be forced to upgrade to their new system if you want to play any of the games you've bought from them in the past ...

Yeah thats a point for sure, I do hope if steam ends so to speak valve will unlock it just as I hope bioshock and mass effect recieve unlocks eventually. I dont want to be paying again for something Ive already paid for, it'll become like yearly licensing like big named programs which will suck. It wont even be worth owning anything then you might as well lease your PC for the duration of your gaming licenses.

I dont trust steam 100% but I can close steam down, with TPM it'll always be active so I guess thats the main difference. Although they would both have to be active while playing games (steam does have offline mode though).


There will be alot more of this forcing though as you put it and I think it'll keep hurting the industry as it has been. You push expect a push back, I think thats the big thing here, hows that saying go "laws are made to be broken?" wether its the speed of sound cant be reached or something else.

I dunno hey, obviously something needs to change within the industry (or maybe we need to rollback to a previous version) but one of the big topics for the PC gaming association was piracy for whatever reason. Personally I think the issue shouldnt be how do we stop piracy but how do we get more people to buy our games, thats not limited to people who are known pirates and can extend to potential gamers, not pirates who are already gamers. Sure gaming is getting bigger in terms of $ sales as I said but they really need to be looking at expanding width wise not height.

Think about movies for a second, people buy those, pass em round to friends, friends watch em when they are around your house or you can take it around theres. The install base for things like dvd's are big enough that you can do that, theres no internet or other type of activation required. Piracy is certainly an issue for movies also but gaming is much more limited because of things like steam where they expect everyone, their brother and dog to pay for a game. Whats wrong with a license extending to immediate family members, I know the movies and such on bus' have a license to say oh you can play this to crowds legally. So are developers charging extra for people playing their games in tourneys? I think that would be a good way to make some money back lost to piracy.

Its virtually impossible to rent PC games with cdkeys, activation and the likes. If a demo is really short or doesnt show the true potential of a title you just lost yourself alot of customers! See if someone pirates the game they might go meh Im not buying it cause I have what I want, if they rent it they get charged late fee's so they take it back and might go out and buy it (there is always the odd chance they will pirate it at that point) but I do feel theres a better chance of purchase first or second hand at that point.

Put it out in the front with big flashing neon signs, make people well aware of what they can and cant do with their PC specs, make it fun!

Dont make it like going into a library where some obscure librarian goes right down the back and pulls out a dusty tome, then gives you an evil eye like youre gonna ruin it.
 
'AAAGH! we havz to stop ppl from copee'ing our ****ty games no one's buying! We're losing so much theoretical non-money!"


/handjob motion @ TCM, Steam and all this other nonsense that doesn't stop 1, not 1 attempt at piracy. Hell even my illiterate arse managed to stumble through the directions on how to pwn Steam. A Hardware version of such authentication will either be emulated, or gotten "off market" from friends in the right circles. (yes Norm and Dennis, I mean you. :p )

(and yeah, as a side to the other topic that was floating around, I think the gaming industry has crammed just about enough graphics onto modern screens. It's time to start putting some quality story telling, immersive game control, and innovative game design into those graphics now. It'd be nice to see some games made for those of us who work for a living, not just lottery winners who happen to own PC demigods.)

just my 2cents
 

dub

Feb 12, 2002
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Since when is Steam an anti-piracy tool?
Here's me thinking it was a games distribution platform.

So I just googled how to bypass steam (I checked the first 3 results)... and it doesn't seem "easy" by any standards. In fact it seems like a royal pain in the ass - so right there you've stopped your low-end warez kiddies (or lazy people), because it's not just download-install-use crack-play.

I'm not trying to make a case for TPM because that just sounds lame to me - just saying about steam.
 

elmuerte

Master of Science
Jan 25, 2000
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the Netherlands
elmuerte.com
Valve still sells Steam as a copy-protection system, even though it doesn't protect much at all. Liberating games from steam captivity has become trivial. The only issue is with online game services, but at that point Gamespy offers the same protection.
 

Zur

surrealistic mad cow
Jul 8, 2002
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Uh, HELLO? You haven't "owned" computer games for years now. Licenses? Remember? You know those boxes with the ten tons of text everyone clicks through? They're contracts that you agree to that say basically that you do not own the game, you are given a license to use it. Hell, UT way back in 1999 may say that (I don't remember, I installed it years ago now.)

If it doesn't "feel like" it belongs to you, it's because it hasn't belonged to you for years now.

If those licenses are a 100% valid I'm still waiting for the possibility of having the game media replaced. Because if I don't own the game but have simply purchased the right to use it I should be able to continue doing so without having to pay to obtain some undamaged media.

Besides those licenses are illegal here since it isn't possible consult them without purchasing a game and opening the packaging.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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Since when is Steam an anti-piracy tool?
Here's me thinking it was a games distribution platform.
Anti-piracy is just another word for complete and total control of the use of your product ...
Steam is a distribution-platform that not only allows control, but it also generates a ton of interesting info for the manament-level (ie : who bought it, what hardware they're using, how much they're playing, etc.)
It's got nothing to do with 'security' (except the security of their own wallets/company).

TPM is like having your government 'protect' your house instead of handling the security yourself.
It may appear to be a cheap and easy solution, but it is a system that can be turned against you without warning.
 

MonsOlympus

Active Member
May 27, 2004
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To be fair though steam surveys are cosensual for the most part, they do take game data like Team Fortress 2 stats to improve their games. No doubt they monitor link clicks just like numerous other websites, but hey all the image based links they got are under patent according to news in offtopic :lol:

Ofcoarse thats if you trust them, its possible they collect other data without your knowledge just like any other service or program you let access the internet. Like who's to say the clock synchronization program isnt sending out information to companies.

It's got nothing to do with 'security' (except the security of their own wallets/company).

Thats about the bottom line though :p
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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I thought Valve had already admitted that they've used statistics from HL 2 to 'fix' problems in a certain level because players were having 'problems'.
To me that says that there certainly is more statistics available to Valve themselves.
Unless Valve gives us exact details on the nature and content of all contact between the Steam-system and the end-user I certainly wouldn't want to trust them to respect my privacy.
Even if Valve (or any other company) didn't use the data there's always the chance of an unreliable/untrustworthy third party with less moral fiber (ie : a hacker) getting access to such data.

Considering the way the Steam-based games are locked into Steam it is very difficult for end-users to deny Valve control over that content if Valve ever were to be found guilty of abusing the data it generates. Such things would effectively require an unlock to be given to the users and that simply won't happen.
 

MonsOlympus

Active Member
May 27, 2004
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Yeah as I said they do take game data, like those deaths charts in TF2 theres the same things for HL2 as well. Its just a way to improve their product, all PC spec related surveys or anything else seems to be consensual. Its kinda like extended UT3 stats or something, thats how I see it.

I do agree though there isnt a way to know for certain, it does kinda suck they can lock you in like that but so far I only have valve games on steam which is pretty much required. All but halflife, I think for the ones I own. It is also possible for them to hand off things to a third party wether by choice or not, the only people who could answer that question would be under NDA. Unless we track down a disgruntled valve employee somewhere :p