Su-25 vs A-10!

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"Sp!ke"

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Have any of you seen a SU-27 in action(on tv)?
Planes dont get more manouverable then that, even the Americans admitted "we have nothing to match it..", but the nice thing about most of the US planes is that they are stealth(new ones) and that they carry more sophisticated weapon systems, which means that one F-22 can take out (in theory) an entire squadron of flankers before they(SUs) come into fireing range of the F-22...in theory....:rolleyes:

And Su-25 vs A10: Go play Flashpoint, not the most accurate game in the world, but the SU-25 will win 10 out of 10...;)
And have anybody got that smart bomb on the A10 to work properly in Ofp, mine always just go straight down...:(
 

Gholam

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Jun 19, 2001
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Uh, Raptor? F-22 has next to no strike capability, putting it in CAS role would be similar to the early F-4's, only somewhat worse because it's low speed performance is ****. F-15 isn't much better in strike department either. F-16 is a decent enough multirole fighter, but it lacks the strike capability of even a late model F-4, much less a dedicated strike aircraft such as Su-25.

Concerning missiles, I'd like you to show me cold hard numbers showing that AGM-65 is better than any Russian missile produced. Keep in mind that Russians specialize in missiles more than any country in the world - they never did put as much trust in airplanes as western powers, preferring to rely on artillery instead, and the natural step up from concept of artillery is the concept of a missile - resulting in Red Army being the only army in the world where missiles are a separate branch of service.

GAU-8 30mm cannon goes through steel armor well enough, but it completely fails against concrete and viscous targets such as sand - to punch through concrete with DU shells, you need to fire a long burst at the same spot, which is physically impossible for an aircraft. Maverick missile carries too weak a warhead to penetrate thick reinforce concrete.

Su-25 and A-10 have similar protection, but Su-25 is quite a bit smaller, faster, and more maneuverable, making it overall a harder target - it's advantage in speed over A-10 is overwhelming, having discharged it's payload it can go transonic for hauling ass out of hot areas - and unlike A-10, it was designed not in a greenhouse, but right in the warzone, entering combat as early as pre-production prototype stage, in one of the hardest areas imaginable. Keep in mind, that fighting in Afghanistan wasn't picking off tanks and trucks in a wide open flat desert enjoying complete air superiority and near complete absense of ground-based antiair - the enemy employed a very large amount of 12.7mm and 14.5mm AAMG's, 23mm ZGU AAA's, as well as Strela-2M, Red Eye, Blowpipe and Stinger missiles, and had extremely good cover - can you imagine flying a CAS aircraft against enemy positions hidden in caves and in the bottom of gorges, demanding attack runs similar to Luke Skywalker's death star canyon run?

As for "russian planes having a bad record", if a pilot inflicts friendly fire, it's the pilot's fault, not the planes. Again, indentifying camouflaged and fortified targets in mountains, without any defined frontline, often in complete darkness at night, is nowhere as easy as shooting tanks in a desert.

The "this technology is obsolete because we got better, cooler, more expensive stuff now" attitude is extremely dangerous (to you, not to your enemy), as has been shown in many cases. Classic example: omission of cannons on early F-4's.

And if you call Su-27 a flying debris pile, I'm not even going to argue with you because it's pointless and you won't listen to any facts.

those same guidance systems your dissin, are helping bombers that are physically older than their pilots do missions that SOMEONES aircraft seemed to fail at previously

Not exactly the same missions - US troops haven't even set foot on Afghanistan soil yet, and the bombing missions have kept themselves to wide open areas such as cities. If you try to use B-52's to bomb targets in mountains, your targets will kill themselves by laughing at you, even if you use nukes.

AC-130 Spectre is nice when target is completely undefended, but place an AAA gun or two in the area and it's toast. Way too slow and vulnerable.
 

MadWoffen

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Originally posted by Gholam
If you try to use B-52's to bomb targets in mountains, your targets will kill themselves by laughing at you, even if you use nukes.

:lol:

Originally posted by Gholam


AC-130 Spectre is nice when target is completely undefended, but place an AAA gun or two in the area and it's toast. Way too slow and vulnerable.

1 of them has been downed in Iraq and another one in Somalia.
They still have 20 or 21 aircrafts active.
 

Gholam

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Jun 19, 2001
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Because they learned their lesson on their predecessor, AC-37 Spooky aka Puff the Magic Dragon, and never used AC-130 anywhere the enemy had even a token air defense system.
 
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"Sp!ke"

Guest
If you 2-3 MiGs(31) vs 3 Specters = 3 dead specters... But thats not a realistic scenario, since the Spectre is ment as close groud support, almost as a helicopter, in way, almost, probably....
 

Gholam

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Jun 19, 2001
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I'm not talking MiG's, I'm talking DShK or KPV machine guns on AA mounts. A few good bursts of 14.5x114mm ammo from a KPV, and there's a damned good chance a completely unprotected Spectre will either lose several engines, or suffer an ammo explosion.
 

G-Fresh

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Aug 6, 2001
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Originally posted by Gholam
And if you call Su-27 a flying debris pile, I'm not even going to argue with you because it's pointless and you won't listen to any facts

Well said, I have had the pleasure of seeing an SU-27 aerobatic display team. They are without doubt the most impressive aircraft I've ever seen.

Oh and spike, the F22 is not a stealth aircraft, it imports some stealth technology but it is by no means invisible to radar. Anyway, unless you've got an AWACS in the area, stealth technology is useless to you because you have to target the enemy. If you turn on your radar, everyone else can see you
 
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Dupre

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May 8, 2000
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Originally posted by jaunty
You can load up the SU-25 with almost every russian missile or rocket pod ever made. The SU-25 can perform in many roles. The A-10 is restricted to ground attack.

Uh, we were discussing the SU-25 and A-10 in CAS role? If we're talking about multi-role capabilities, then you should be comparing the SU-25 vs. the F-16.
 
Originally posted by Mr. HotDog


(Is it 30? I'm not 100% sure on this) makes for some good tank bustin'.

The GAU-8 "Avenger" is 30mm. I've verified this personally; I looked down the barrels of one at a range of about two inches. Oh, the crazy things a kid will do.

GE makes four Gatling cannons: the 5.56mm "Microgun", the 7.62mm "Minigun", the 20mm M-61 Vulcan cannon and the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger.



Both the A-10 and the Su-25 are heavily armored and will consequently can take an insane amount of damage and still fly home. Both can carry any air-to-ground weapon in their respective country's arsenal, but are generally armed with weapons suitable to ground-attack/tank-busting.

Anyone who says the A-10 is limited to the AGM-65 Maverick antitank missile is sadly misguided...it can carry anything, but usually doesn't because other things are not as useful for its assigned role of tank-busting. 1000lbs and 2000lbs dumb bombs are also a common load.

As for the F-16, they tried using it to replace the A-10, using podded GAU-8 guns...couldn't hit a thing...they gave up. Besides, I don't want to be anywhere near a -16 when it's going low against heavy flak.
 
Originally posted by DeadeyeDan[ToA]


And IIRC, it has 3 different sets of controls for maneuvering, so taking one down probably means doing a sh*tload of damage to it (especially if it can fly on one engine, didn't know that- damn!).

This is correct. The A-10 has a double-redundant set of hydraulic controls, backed up by a set of manual controls.

Yes, manual as in the stick is physically hauling the control surfaces around, just like old WWI biplanes. Ouch.
 

Snakeye

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The A10 can carry much more than just Mavericks.

According to www.fas.org it can carry:
2.75in Rockets
Mk82 500lbs GPLD bombs
Mk84 2000lbs GPLD bombs
Mk77 750lbs naphalm bombs
Mk20 Rockeye II cluster bombs
CBU52 cluster bombs
CBU58 cluster bombs
CBU71 cluster bombs
CBU87 cluster bombs
CBU89 cluster bombs
CBU97 cluster bombs
BL755 whatever?
AMG65 Maverick
GBU10 2000lbs LGB
GBU12 500lbs LGB
AIM9 Sidewinder

That makes for a little variety, doesn't it?

Of course the Su25/Su39 have a similar arsenal of rockets, dumb and guided bombs, AGMs and AAMs.

Also the A10 is quite maneuvrable, especially at low altitude - don't know how it's compared to the Su25/Su39 though, suppose this one moves nice too..

As the AC130 is concerned, it doesn't carry a GAU8. The AC130H has 2 M61 Vulcans, one 40mm Bofors and a 105 howitzer; the AC130U has the M61 replaced by a GAU12 25mm Gatling gun.
I believe this one too is made by GE, along with the GAU13(four barreled 30mm 'sister' of the GAU8, saw limited use as pod-mounted weapon for the FA16 project); there's also a .50 cal GG, the GECAL50..

As for the Su27, I too saw one on an airshow, and it's performance was awesome. It can make some maneuvers US aircraft can't do, think the cobra was one..

that's it,

Snakeye :D
 

Gholam

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Jun 19, 2001
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Thing is, while A-10 is certainly capable of mounting those weapons, the avionics suite was designed with only two of them in mind - GAU-8 and AGM-65, and everything else was added as an afterthought. While all that array of different bombs looks impressive at first glance, there's only one napalm bomb, no FAE's at all, and only one type of unguided rockets, which is pretty weak at 80mm - all of those weapons that were found VERY effective for CAS by Su-25 pilots. I'm not aware of Su-25 ever dropping cluster bombs, but that's most likely because the primary combat theater for Su-25 have been Afghanistan mountains, and cluster bombs are utterly useless there.
 

LieLestoSbrat

Can You Count? Sucka's
hey I think this might help clear things up a bit. I got a old tank sim (M1 tank platoon 2) and it has a detailed section in the manual on the vehicles in the game include CAS support.

A10 specs:

Length: 52ft. 7in.
Width: 55ft.
Maximum weight: 42,825lb
Maximum speed: 460mph
Combat radius: 250nm
Armament 30mm cannon and up to 18,500lb. of ordnance on 11 external hardpoints.
Accomidation: pilot only
Note: Designed for close air support in Europe as a tank buster, the A-10 had proven itself a very valuable weapon for close air support.

SU-25:

Length: 50ft. 4.5in.
Width: 47ft. 7.75in.
Height: 17ft. 0.75in.
Maximum weight: 42,990 lbs.
Maximum speed: 512kts. (not sure what that is in mph)
Range 378 nm.
Armament: twin-barrel 30mm cannon with 200 rounds, 16 AT-9 anti-tank missiles, AA-8 air-to-air missiles and various other weaponary in the Russian inventory.
Accomidation: Pilot only.
Notes: This anti-tank aircarft originally entered service with the Soviet Union in 1978. The current version of this aircarft is the SU-25T, which entered service in 1993 with improved suvivablity in an anti-aircraft environment.

Nato arrmaent for A-10
GAU-8/A Avenger 30mm cannon

PGU-14B API
Penetration: 250mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1420 Metres per second
Rate of fire: 4200 rounds per minute maximum

PGU-13B HEI
Penetration: 50mm
Muzzle Velocity: 1100 meter per second
Rate of fire: 4200 rounds per minute maximum

AGM-65G Maverick
Range: 25,000 metres
penetration: -25,000 metres
Average speed: 350 metres per second
Guidence: Imaging infrared seeker

Russian Armament for SU-25
(Nothing mensioned about the twinn 30mm cannons)

9M120 Vikhr (AT9 Drakon)
Range: 6000 metres
Penetration: 925mm
Average speed: 300 metres per second
Guidence Laser guided
Special: Tandem warhead

(Nothing mensioned about the AA-8 air-toair missiles)

For those that don't know about the tandem warhead, these where desgined to defeat targets with early reactive armour. The missile contains two seperate shaped-charged warheads, arranged in tandam (Hence the name). The first charge detonates on impact and sets of the reactive armour, whcih disrupts the jet of the first charge. The second carge detonates a few microseconds later, so that its jet hits the targets armour after the reactive armour charge has dissipatted.

Reactive armour is another attenpt to protect tanks from shaped-charge warheads. It consists of a series of steel boxes containing explosives, bolted to the outside of the tank. When a box is hit ny a shaped warhead, the box detonates. This pushes the metal plate into the forming jet and disrupts it before it can penetrate the armour. The introduction of tandem warhead missiles has resulted in a new generatin of reactive armour. This type uses a larger box that incoporates a second rear plate. As the box detonates, the outer plate disrupts the first jet. The rear plate bpunces off the vehicle and then is in place to disrupt the main warhead. In addition. this double plating system has a significant chance to break a long-rod penetrator, providing protection from both armour piercing and HEAT rounds.
(see picture for a simplified diagram of how tandam warheads and reactive armour works.)



I do realise that this information IS from a game manual, and is proberbly not 100% accurate but I felt that it would show to some people what the diffrent aircraft can do/not do, and some ofthe defence systems that tanks employ to defend against these threats
 

Snakeye

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2.75in is 70mm, which may be weak, but has a variety of warheads and is a proven system. The US only uses those and 5in rockets IIRC, and the latter might only be used by the USMC(really not sure, think I read that somewhere..).

And to drop dumb bombs with a bit of precision is rather easy nowadays. If the target computer of the A10 can calculate a CCIP for the GAU8 it can do so for any bomb(perhaps with a bit of new software..).

Don't know why the US doesn't use FAEs on the A10, they have some nice 500lbs ones on the arsenal. Do you need more than 1 different naphalm bomb? The US uses 3(Mk77/750lbs, Mk78/500lbs and Mk79 1000lbs) though only the first one is used on the A10; 750lbs seems a nice choice though..

I never said any aircraft was better than the other, I just wanted to point out there's more than just GAU8 and Mavericks to fit on a A10. I'd still chose the Su39 over it anytime - speed(950 km/h compared to Mach 0.56..) is probably more handy than the fancy GAU8 when anyone fires at you, and since the other performance it quite similar..

Snakeye :D
 
Originally posted by The_Fur
american misslies rock? since when? they have alwas been outnmatched by their eastern block counterparts both in range and destructive power.

BTW American missiles were so good that the early sidewinders were about as usefull as chucking rocks at enemy planes, they tended to prefer the sun over the enemy aircraft. The mavericks were plagued with problems in acquiring targets as well.

Heh heh heh. I know more about air-to-air than air-to-mud, but here goes:



The Russians counterpart to the Sidewinder, the AA-10 Archer, has a wide-aspect IR seeker and vectored thrust, coupled with helmet-mounted HUD system. The U.S. won't be able to match that until the AIM-9X version of the Sidewinder is released AND our planes are retrofitted with the helmet HUD we have under development.

Meanwhile, the Russians are hard at work on staying ahead, with a new version Archer that's capable of firing BACKWARDS -- using the Su-27/35/37's rear-facing radar for a rough lock, then having the missile loop on launch for a rear shot.

Their medium range missile is said to be similar to our AMRAAM, but with better range.

Long range missiles? We don't have any, now that the AIM-54 Phoenix is being retired. Oops.



Basically, we're now reliant on stealth technology as our ace in the hole. Whether or not that works out in combat remains to be seen...and I for one think it won't.
 
Originally posted by LieLestoSbrat
Personally I prefer the Su-25 simply cos it looks cool, but I do have to ask what is that American plane that looks like a Hurcules and has a Gau 8 avenger gatling gun a Boffors 30mm gun and 105mm howizter sticking out the side. I have heard alot about this posted in the papers, so can anyone please enlighten me more.

AC-130 Spectre transport-gunship.
 

Snakeye

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Rule No1: Never ever believe a game manual.

According to various sources on the net(which seem more credible to me than the game manual..):

The PGU-14/B 30mm API DU can penetrate 69mm@500m and 39mm@1000m. You may find that is nowhere near 250mm, at 1000m it's even less that the M1TP2 manual states for the PGU-13/B which is HEI!
Also muzzle velocities are about 980m/s for the PGU-14/B and 1030m/s for the PGU-13/B.

BTW just searched for the BL755, it's a British cluster bomb..

Snakeye :D