Some questions on guns...

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

*taps fingertips together*

eeeeeeexcellent...

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

 

[ShakKen]

The SAS have tried and proven the 9mm to be more effective than the .45 in panic situations. In many operations in Nothern Ireland, SAS troopers were known to carry sometimes nothing more than their high powers. In many incidents, the subjects bodies are recovered with no less than 7 9mms center mass and in the T-zone.

The SAS average a kill for every 6 round burst from an MP5.

And that's with ball ammunition alone mind you. And expecially for the military, the rule of the day is volume-volume-volume. The 9mm works well, and you can carry a lot of them. The latter cannot often be said for the .45.

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist

 

[Snakeye]

Thanks ShakKen, I thought to be alone on the 9mm front..

What most of you said about the 3 round average gunfight is true, but only for civilian situations. In military terms a handgun is sure the lat resort, but if it goes to that I'd rather have something with more than 7+1; remember INF is a military situation.
For those of you who question the sense of handguns for the soldier itself:
handguns are much more a morale factor. The handgun is among the last thing a soldier would drop, even if retreating panically. It gives some kind of feeling to be able to defend himself.

About the penetration thing:
You cannot say that any bullet will penetrate better because it's size. In fact I read an article about penetration tests of handguns. They compared mainly 9mm and below, but included a .357. Nearly every average caliber penetrated up to 2mm of steel, but at 3mm only two bullets got throug. One was a WWII german 9mm AP(the standard 9mm FMJ didn't go through. The ohther was a lead WC in .357 Magnum!
So penetration is something depending on many factors, also what has to be penetrated. But I agree for protection of bystanders, a 9mm FMJ is a very poor choice. For police/civilian use a .40 or .45 is better suited.

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

 

[Doccers]

As I recall,

the H&K Socom has a magazine capacity of 12 .45acp rounds, while the browning Hi Power has a magazine capacity of 13.

I'll take the bullets that won't just piss off a druggie, thankyee. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

 

[Doccers]

OICW:

BTW, I regularly outshoot people with a .45acp at long distances, when they're using 9mm, with a normal 1911a1. it's very accurate at long ranges. You just need to learn how to shoot correctly. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

 

[ShakKen]

The SOCOM and USP series are 3rd generation guns. Let me remind you that the GLOCK 17 holds 17 rounds and 19 rounds in flush fit magazines.

A stock gun and a modified gun are very differant. Saying you can outshoot a stock browning high power with a stock m1911a1 is utter bullshit.

Anyone can shoot well with a custom gun. How many people can shoot box stock I ask you? Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, .45 is NOT the clear superior of the 9mm parabellum.

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist

 

[MP*Beretta]

If I recall (it's been in the basement for a while), my Glock 21 (which is .45 ACP) has a capacity of 13+1. That's stock, albeit pre-ban.

My Kimber outshoots it easily, incidentally.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable.[/quote]

`Very difficult' is probably a good description! Three-inch doubletaps at 7 meters is typically considered good. Certainly `good enough'.

Something else to consider - if you're worried about excellent shot placement on a target 25 meters away, there are probably alternatives to shooting. Unless you're playing Inf. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'd still rather use a revolver...

 

[I_ABuGa]

so generally a larger calibar = more energy transfer.


ok, how about jamming. When a gun jams, does this mean that the bullet doesnt slide up properly and gets stuck? Is it possible for a round to go off and screw up the chamber?

-------------

Maybe someday the world will learn, to be kind to someone who makes a fault..
Snakeye <IMG src=http://unreal.infopop.net/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif>

Hell, I'd settle for having the world learn anything at all.

 

[Doccers]

Shakken, you're on.

Bring your Browning Hi-Pow, and I'll bring my 1911a1. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The winner gets a pre-release copy of INF 2.8! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

With FMJ pistol rounds, generally yes Abuga, but if they do something other than just punch straight through, like deform/mushroom (jhp's, softpoints, etc), or spin/spall (high-speed rifle fmj's), they produce alot more energy transfer and the width of the bullet before it hits the target will matter alot less.

_______________________
Shot four puppet governors in a line,
Shook all tha world bankers, who think they can rhyme,
Shot the landlords, who knew it was mine,
Yes, its a war from the depth of time!

 

[Galaddin]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The winner gets a pre-release copy of INF 2.8! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif [/quote]

Hehe Doccers, it looks like ShakKen has nothing to gain because it seems that all the members of the INF team somehow have their hands on INF 2.8... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is impossible for the glass to be half full or half empty for you see: there is no glass

 

[ShakKen]

Ak, you're on. But the 1911a1 has to be a stock government model from either colt or auto-ordnance. No contest.

Kimbers are BUILT up as custom guns so they don't count.

"so generally a larger calibar = more energy transfer."

Not neccesarily, light bullets with high velocities slow down quickly on impact, hence they spall and tranfer energy quickly.

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist

 

[Doccers]

1911

Mine's a gov't model 1911 issued in 1943. No mod's to it, other than the slide being replaced (with another stock slide, the original was pretty banged up).

I wanna be an elven ranger, I want a life that's full of danger,

 

[Zundfolge]

We keep jumping back and forth between military and self defense uses.

For military, a 9mm pistol makes the most sense. A handgun is the weapon of last resort, and being able to share ammo with your SMG means there's less of a chance some quartermaster will fuck up and not send you the right ammo for your pistol.

Now, for civilian personal defense, you're not going to need a double-stack magazine with 17 rounds, you're going to get 1-3 shots and that's it. Either you're dead, your attacker is dead, the cops have shown up, or you or the attacker have found an opening and run away. So in that scenereo the .45 would be fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Show me a guy who can consistently double tap a stock 1911 CGM from weaver stance into a 1 inch group at 25m and I'll show you a flying pig. With a high power, such a shot is difficult, but not unachieveable. [/quote]

I think you've got just as much chance of seeing a flying pig with the 9mm too, especialy under combat situation.

Maybe at the gunrange, under controlled conditions a real good shot could pull that off.

The HK USP .45 holds 12+1, and there are other hi-capacity .45s on the market.
As for the military not using custom guns, the 1911 was developed for the military, so I think that would make it somewhat of a custom.

I agree that the 1911 is outdated for a military role, but are you comparing .45 ammo to 9mm ammo or a 1911 to a Baretta 92f?


BTW, Casull, which Kimber have you got? Once I have all my pennies saved up I'm looking at buying one (if I get enough pennies, I want an UltraCDP).