Show off your scientific background here 2 : The return

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QUALTHWAR

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Originally posted by Frostblood
Take it to the Jesus bloody christ thread, religion-boys. This here's science country.

To spark of a new and non-philisophical debate, heres a question for qualthwar : if nucleons ( neutrons and protons ) are made of quarks, what holds the quarks together? and could you combine different quarks with different properties to make new nucleons and hence new "charmed" or "strange" elements and substances?

Quarks are held together by “gluons, which are the field particles that transmit the “strong” force between quarks. The charges are as follows:

Up: +2/3e
Down: -1/3e
Strange: -1/3e
Charmed: +2/3e
Bottom: -1/3e
Top: +2/3e

I don’t remember the possible combinations, if they are limited, etc. It’s been several years since I even cracked a book about the subject, and it’s too late in the day for me to research it now.
 

GoAt

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Originally posted by QUALTHWAR


Doesn't matter, i didn't believe you before, which is why i located what i did, and i sure won't believe anything else you try to pawn off as your own.
icon10.gif
has anyone ever belived me??
 

Claw

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Originally posted by QUALTHWAR
I don’t remember the possible combinations, if they are limited, etc. It’s been several years since I even cracked a book about the subject, and it’s too late in the day for me to research it now.

There are over 100 types of baryons (particles like proton and neutron made of 3 quarks with a spin of 1/2, 3/2, ...?)

I guess there are some possible "alternative elements" but if any of them are stable is another matter.
 

Frostblood

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Mar 18, 2001
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Quarks are held together by gluons, which are the field particles that transmit the strong force between quarks.

I knew that, but what exactly are gluons? Are they quarks themselves?
 

Evil_Cope

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well, as everything was made from energy in the bb, surely when you look close enough the basest elememt of an atom/quark/gluon etc whatever, will be energy...

the point i was trying to make was that just because it cannot be perceived doesnt mean it isnt there.


i have always been sceptical of the whole "dimensions" thing. seems like so much theory to me. bad as a religious arguemnt. pure speculation founded on inadequate facts. (ie what we know today).

nothing simply is. well, that is, nothing can simply have appeared from nothingness. cause and effect but im convinced that "reality" is not the kind of thing that is created, it simply is, and always will be. because reality is all encompassing. even if the entire laws of physics or whatever change, "reality" remains. the mutliverse as claw once dubbed it.
 

Frostblood

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Matter is energy and energy is matter. The two are fundamentally the same and composed of the same types of things...its like I was saying on the old BBS, I suspect that all particles are built from a single fundamental type of particle, just arranged in different ways. Like atoms are composed of nucleons, everything would be built from different arrangements of one particle. Combined with quantisation, this means that the univese is actually "binary" and simply a phenomenally complex arrangement of "1" and "0" points in space, like a dot-matrix printed page, from a distance it looks grey but up close it is black and white.
 

QUALTHWAR

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Originally posted by mister_cope
well, as everything was made from energy in the bb, surely when you look close enough the basest elememt of an atom/quark/gluon etc whatever, will be energy...


Matter was derived from energy, but matter is not energy. You can convert energy into matter and matter into energy, which is the basis for Einstein’s famous equation: E=mc^2.
 

Balton

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well,

what I think about dimensions,

I have an onion in mind. with many many layers. thats how I imagine those dimensions. when you are stuckin the 4th you can see the 28 th from out and all the others. but an onion with 4 layers we would be on top and can see them all..... get me?
 

Claw

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Originally posted by QUALTHWAR
Is anyone familiar with lightning and how it occurs?

Somewhat. The (one) reason is the electrtic field between Earth's surface and the 'Electrosphere' with Earth being the negative pole.
Also, while water in the whole is uncharged, it is full of negative and positive ions.

In Cumulonimbus clouds (yeah I had to look that one up ;) ) which are very high, these ions are seperated by the electric potential, with the positive charge accumulated on the lower end, therefore rain is usually positively charged. This charge obviously compensates the negative charge of the ground, maybe even creating a positive charge (locally).

So the clouds end up with a negative charge, with the ground below having a less negative or even positive charge, causeing a strong electric field between cloud and surface. If this field is strong enough (plus other factor, like humidity (sp?) of the air, strength of rainfall) electrical charges will flow from the cloud in the direction of the surface, ionizings the air creating thin channels with high condictivity.
This initial lightning attracts electrical charges from the ground, causing an intercepting lightning from the ground joining to complete those channels og high conductivity through wich now the real lightning strike, a massive current of both negative charges downwards and positive upwards can flow, heating the air rapidly and causing a shockwave, i.e. thunder. The rapid expansion cools the air down adiabaticly (sp?) reducing the conductivity and stopping the lightning.

Notes: The whole cloud won't ususally be negatively charged. Instead, positive charges will accumulate on the top in the end. I assume this is caused by repulsion due to the positive charge on the ground and/or effects unknown to me. This will leave a positive charge after the thunderstorm.
 
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Claw

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Originally posted by Balton.de
well,

what I think about dimensions,

I have an onion in mind. with many many layers. thats how I imagine those dimensions. when you are stuckin the 4th you can see the 28 th from out and all the others. but an onion with 4 layers we would be on top and can see them all..... get me?

No I don't. Maybe you coluld say it in German for me, 'cos your grammar sucks badly.

Why can someone in the 4th dimension see the 28th? I think it's more the opposite... you can see all dimentsions "below" you.
But even that's just a construct for understanding certain things for me. I really believe we live in all 11 (I hear) dimensions, we just lack senses to perceive them.
 
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Balton

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Originally posted by Claw


No I don't. Maybe you coluld say it in German for me, 'cos your grammar sucks badly.

Why can someone in the 4th dimension see the 28th? I think it's more the opposite... you can see all dimentsions 2below" you.
But even that's just a construct for understanding certain things for me. I really believe we live in all 11 (I hear) dimensions, we just lack senses to perceive them.

damn, I see now that I didnt typed well....

well, its ofcourse so that we cant see 28. dim but they can see us. now if they would shake our earth we got to figure out what happens but ccant really tell. blabla... sleep
 

Evil_Cope

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Aug 24, 2001
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Originally posted by Claw


No I don't. Maybe you coluld say it in German for me, 'cos your grammar sucks badly.

Why can someone in the 4th dimension see the 28th? I think it's more the opposite... you can see all dimentsions "below" you.
But even that's just a construct for understanding certain things for me. I really believe we live in all 11 (I hear) dimensions, we just lack senses to perceive them.

alright then. 11 dimensions. wtf are the extra 7 or so?

i thought that the first "three" are like, lenght breadth and height. and time is the fourth, but that sounds like a cliche to me.


what are these onion layers supposed to be then? Hmmm?
 

QUALTHWAR

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Originally posted by Claw


Somewhat.

The way I understand it, lightning works something like this:

The movement of the clouds/atmosphere causes a separation of charges in the clouds and electrons strip away causing a surplus of negative charge at the bottom of the clouds. A lightning bolt will travel down toward the positive field of the earth in what is called step leaders. These step leaders are approximately 50 meters long, which is why you see the forked pieces in a lightning bolt as opposed to a straight bolt. These leaders are looking for something to connect with, and that something is a positive streamer. Pretty much anything can launch a positive streamer: a person, a blade of grass, a building, etc. There may be several things launching positive streamers at the same time, but many are failed streamers, and one will actually connect.

Lightning hitting the highest object around is a myth, and here is why: say a negative step leader starts branching down out of a cloud. It goes 50 meters, branches off, goes another 50, then another, and all the while the negative charge may be growing. A step leader might pass right by a high building that has launched a positive streamer, because the leader is too weak to make the connection. But as it branches another time or two, it might gain enough charge to connect with another streamer that been launched closer to the ground. So the lightning might go right past a lightning rod if it hasn’t enough potential to make the connection.

Once the negative step leader and the positive streamer have made the connection, you have a lightning bolt. The forked branches of the bolt discharge in sections, which is what caused the flickering. The lightning flash actually goes from ground to cloud, not the other way around. The bolt is around an inch in diameter, and is hotter than the surface of the sun. It’s so hot, in fact, that it superheats the surrounding air and the adjacent molecules speed away faster than the speed of sound. It’s the air moving past the sound barrier that causes a sonic boom that we call thunder.

Most lightning strikes happen from cloud to cloud, and not from earth to cloud. The region where I live here in Florida is the lightning capital of the United States. It can get pretty nasty sometimes. Right after a strike, you are usually safe for a few seconds until enough charge has built up to cause another strike.

A vehicle is one of the safest places to be during a lightning storm, because the car acts like a Faraday cage, transferring the electricity around you and harmlessly to earth. It’s not because you have rubber tires that makes you safe, rather the fact that the car conducts the electricity around you so easily. Our bodies are made of about 3 percent saltwater, which is why we make good conductors if we are hit directly. Standing under a tree is unsafe, since a bolt can hit the tree and jump from it to you, or heat the tree so much that splinters can fly out and hit you.

If you are in a lighting storm, or see a nasty cloud nearby and feel the hair on your head standing up a little, chances are you’re a good candidate for a direct hit. The best thing to do is squat down on your haunches and make yourself into a ball. Electricity fires best off a sharp, flat edge, not a ball. Rubber shoes won’t help you, and neither will rubber underwear. I’ve tried that.
 

Evil_Cope

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Originally posted by mister_cope


alright then. 11 dimensions. wtf are the extra 7 or so?

i thought that the first "three" are like, lenght breadth and height. and time is the fourth, but that sounds like a cliche to me.


what are these onion layers supposed to be then? Hmmm?


bump(mapping)

i still want an explanation. claw? he who would be post king?
 

Evil_Cope

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Originally posted by Balton.de



each layer is a new dimension.

weel duh. but what are they?

if we hgave lenght breadth and height, and arguably space, what are these others? and if you DONT know what they are, how can you beleave in them?
 

Claw

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Originally posted by mister_cope


weel duh. but what are they?

if we hgave lenght breadth and height, and arguably space, what are these others? and if you DONT know what they are, how can you beleave in them?


I do not know of this layers thing... but I believe the other dimensions are attributes of particles we cannot percieve directly... what makes a lepton a lepton, what form is a neutrino? I think it is attributes in those 7 surplus dimensions that distinguish different particles; like, particles having a different legth in dimension #6 makes the difference between 'strange' and 'charmed' quarks. Just a guess to show the principle.
That isn't a very clear explanation but I have no deep knowledge of quantum physics.
 

Claw

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Originally posted by QUALTHWAR


The way I understand it, lightning works something like this:

(...blahblahblah...)


Did you perchance just ask so you could show off your wisdom afterwards? :con:


I meant to mention friction actually but I must've forgot. I do not like that explanation much anyway 'cos I have yet to find WHY it causes a distinctive charge seperation. But maybe the friction just causes an unbalance and the electric field of the earth then seperates 'em like I said?
As for step leaders, I wouldn't know any english terms of course but that may be. Only, those are really just effects IMO.
The negative charge will seek a way towards the positive charge according to to Lagrange, the 'easiest' way if you will, which isn't the shortest but the way with the highest friction, and that is no stright line as the air isn't homogenous, esp. not when it rains. The conductivity a point constantly changes so the charge has to change his path constantly.
The reason why every charge will not follow the same path is the electric repulsion between every signle electron. In fact, a close look on a lightning strike will reveal fractions of electrons branching off over the whole length of the "bolt" and mostly dissipating after a short distance 'cos invisible quantities of electrons are leaving the visible branches due to the repulsion.

As for the launching a positive streamer, I DID mention that with the 'intercepting lightning' but is seems I forgot to mention those are positive charges! It is a reacton on the the negative charge of the "initial bolt" from above and of course it can be "launched" from anything. Why shouldn't it? Any matter can be positively or negatively charged, and the streamer is aequivalent to the lightning from above, just positive.

As for the lightning bolt going from the ground upwards... I believe that is a myth caused by the confusing definition from the direction of current: positive-->negative. In truth, it's electrons that flow mostly, and they flow from the cloud to the ground. But as I said, positively charged ions can move upwards at the same time, although I expect them to react with the electrons to become uncharged.

I didn't mention the air-to-air lightning 'cos the same effects apply and every child know there is lightning between clouds.

Sounds awfully like a scientific article, your post ;)

You're right about Faradey of course, althought you might have explained it for those who didn't pay attention at school...

Gtg so I'll just finish here... poser :p