Rifle Grenades

[striderteen]

Okay, this might as well go on its own thread.

Infiltration has just got to have rifle grenades.

Specifically, I'd like to see the Universal Bullet Trap Rifle Grenade produced by MECAR S.A. (a subsidiary of Allied Research Corporation). I know Israeli troops use the Mecar rifle grenades; I'm not sure who else does. Here's the manufacturer's description of them:

"Universal Bullet Trap Rifle Grenades.

The universal bullet trap rifle grenade is designed to be light, effective, accurate and simple to use. It is fitted over the muzzle of any standard military rifle with a muzzle outer diameter of 22mm and fired from the shoulder in the normal manner. This method of firing a grenade is made possible by MECAR's development of the universal bullet trap ("BTU"). The BTU is a patented device which can be used with all existing makes of steel core or soft core bullets in calibers 7.62mm and 5.56mm, including the latest round (SS109) used in the M-16 rifle. The BTU is fitted within the tail of the grenade. When the bullet is fired, it lodges in the BTU and the expanding gases released by the discharged round propel the grenade to its target. MECAR manufactures several different bullet trap grenades including high explosive fragmentation, anti-personnel, armour piercing, smoke generating, white phosphorus, and parachute flare (night illuminating)."

I'm not sure which rifles besides the M-16 can mount a Mecar, but I'm sure plenty of you guys who have access to the real guns can see if they have 22mm muzzles.

Rifle grenades are a major tool in real warfare, and therefore belong in any real military simulation worth its salt. With greater range and hitting power than 40mm underbarrel launcher grenades, rifle grenades are probably the most powerful explosive blast weapon carried by ordinary line infantry, as well as the most powerful antipersonnell weapon short of a flame-thrower.

This, I believe, is a real chance for Infiltration to stand out. No military sim game I'm aware of has true rifle grenades, as opposed to the underbarrel launcher type -- they're a bit tricky to use, and require practice. But then again, that's the same reason nobody else uses iron sights.

 

[RAZZ]

Operation flashpoint has em. I dunno how accurate they are to the real thing though.

I dont know if the universal grenade would be the best idea.
a weapon sort of loses its uniqueness with that kinda adaptability.
someone said they come in quivers of 6... that sounds like alot of firepower multiplied by 4 men. almost every open turf map would become a blast zone.
My feelings are mixed on that though, as I dearly miss my 5 nade 203

letting em take two RGs with the least popular rifle of the next update should square things off without changing the game too much.
[edit: btw, anyone got an rl ss of an rg they can post? particularly the famas ones and the ofp type 'mortar' rounds for the m-16]

 

[striderteen]

I'm the one who mentioned the quivers. That's the way Israeli Paras carry 'em, although that was the older non-bullet-trap Mecar.

It may make the battlefield an explosive place, but that's the way real battlefields are, isn't it?

 

[yurch]

Originally posted by striderteen
...that's the same reason nobody else uses iron sights.

Oops. Now that was just the wrong thing to say. (Look at my avatar.)
And you know damn well that every person here would carry a quiver of those things.
Without any restrictions, no.
With an explosion like the m203 has(improperly modeled), I am giving it a hell no.
With predictable player start points and choke points, I can garantee you a kill every round. All I need to do is fire one of those in the right direction, and pow.
The danger radius on those things must be huge. They havent got a correct one for any of the explosions yet.
And many maps dont have ceiling enough to shoot these in a high enough arc. That is a problem you are stuck with.
So what you have added to the game is this, a rocket you can fire with a large explosion.
You dont have to be exact, just fire near the enemies feet!
Oh, wait, what game is this begining to sound like?

 

[striderteen]

Re: Re: Rifle Grenades

Originally posted by yurch

Oops. Now that was just the wrong thing to say. (Look at my avatar.)
And you know damn well that every person here would carry a quiver of those things.
Without any restrictions, no.
With an explosion like the m203 has(improperly modeled), I am giving it a hell no.
With predictable player start points and choke points, I can garantee you a kill every round. All I need to do is fire one of those in the right direction, and pow.
The danger radius on those things must be huge. They havent got a correct one for any of the explosions yet.
And many maps dont have ceiling enough to shoot these in a high enough arc. That is a problem you are stuck with.
So what you have added to the game is this, a rocket you can fire with a large explosion.
You dont have to be exact, just fire near the enemies feet!
Oh, wait, what game is this begining to sound like?

I was referring to the fact that other games didn't implement iron sights, not that people abuse ACOG sights.

The kill radius on a rifle grenade is about the same as a hand grenade, 15-odd meters (vs. 5-6 meters for a 40mm grenade). Think of it as a M67 being tossed by someone on serious steroids.

I wouldn't have suggested it prior to 2.86, but with the weapons collision and inertia there IS a significant handicap to having a big finned grenade hanging on the end of your gun. Rifle grenade abusers are going to get slaughtered in CQB, handicapped by a really long, really heavy gun that can't be used at short range due to arming distance.

RGs are dangerous, but they're dangerous in the real world too. Slow reload makes them less useful for spawn camping (which is evil); chokepoint ambushes, well, that's what they're for in the real world.

The way I envision it, you'd use the "Use" key to put a rifle grenade on the end of your gun or take one off. The animation would have you lower the gun, pull a grenade out of the quiver (which would be a grenade holster, X-Com style), clamp it on the end of the gun, then pick the gun back up to firing position.

I wouldn't say the rifle grenade is a uber-rocket launcher. Especially not a UT or other game rocket launcher, which are almost always automatic/burst fire magazine-feed, no-need-to-reload things with ridiculously small blast radii. Rife grenades are perhaps the exact opposite: single shot, manual-feed, always-have-to-reload things with ridiculously large blast radii.

 

[yurch]

hand nades have 5m kill radius.
40mm are supposed to be bigger, from 9-15m or so.
And slow-reload is not a disadvantage- the guy is already dead.
I remember hearing rifle-grenades as fireing with the gun-stock to the ground, because of the massive recoil. Which is not exaclty accurate...
Keep in mind there is no wind in inf either...

 

[striderteen]

I looked it up, Yurch.

"In WWII, the good guys could shoot faster , now the bad guys had the advantage until the M16 arrived to save the day. Unfortunately, instead of improving the rifle grenade, the U.S. threw out rifle grenades with the M14 and adopted the single-shot M79 shotgun-style 40mm grenade launcher in Vietnam which made the rifle squad lose a rifle's worth of firepower in order to lob a tiny grenade whose meager 5 meter kill radius explosive effects were absorbed by the dense jungle and not the enemy. The Grenadier himself couldn't defend himself from close-range automatic weapons fire attack. After the war, the 40mm grenade launcher, M203 was attached underneath a M16 rifle but still shoots the miniscule 40mm grenade from a select few people in the squad, who are likely to get pinned down and be unable to support their comrades by explosive effects fire as seen time and time again in places like Punta Paitilla."



"If we are so cheap that we can't create a family of rifle/hand stick grenades, why not then update the grenade adaptor idea using a bullet trap? A bullet trap can be launched by EITHER live rounds OR powerful blanks...

Such an adaptor could propel the current M67 fragmentation hand grenade to a much safer distance than what the arm can throw. The M67 is far more powerful and effective with its 15m kill radius than the puny M203 40mm grenade's 5m radius."




"Unlike the older generation rifle grenades that needed to be fired by special blanks, the latest generation of rifle launched munitions can be launched SAFELY by standard live ammunition. This is a grenade that is placed over the end of the service rifle and launched by trapping the bullet completely or as it passes through. This can propel very large charges of explosives up to 150-350+ meters with a 20+ meter kill radius."


"Two armies that use rifle grenades exclusively are the the IDF (Galil, a variant of the AK) and the SADF (R-4 variant of the Galil a variant of the AK). Both of these armies have rejected the 40mm grenade launcher for their Infantry although the Israelis do use the 203 for special troops and riot duty. They both have a lot of experience with Infantry combat and should not be ignored."




"I know we spend a lot of time teaching Calls for Fire, but a squad leader usually is involved in the fire fight and shouldn't be bothered with anything other than trying to gain fire superiority. Rifle Grenades would help you do this at the squad level. Missiles like the AT-4 and LAW are good direct fire weapons but they are bulky and heavy and are impossible to drop in dead ground and although we should have a bunker busting round they both fire HEAT. The rifle grenade can do direct fire, cover dead ground, fire obscuration and Anti tank. That's versatility at very little cost and eliminates a squad leader trying to employ weapons systems that are not organic to the squad and therefore not under his direct control."



"Night patrols [Korean War veteran], when 'stuff hit the fan' all grenade action was at close quarters. The rifle grenade was useful for 50-100 yard tries at crew served weapons in movement situations."

 

[striderteen]

Quotes aside, it's illogical for the 40mm grenade to be more powerful than the hand grenade since the latter is a lot bigger. Remember that the 40mm round is just that, a round...the actual "bullet" is a lot smaller than the thing that goes in the launcher.

 

[yurch]

So explain to me why we should have this in a 8 player fight?
The question, is balance, in the inf enviroment.

 

[The_Fur]

BTW, isn't that what the RAW was for? Too bad it sucked so much.

 

[RAZZ]

we arnt here to correct the injustices of the battlefield. we've come here to have them simulated for us.
Thats why I suggested 2 nades for your least popular rifle. weather it be the famas or somethign else, it gives that weapon new life and wont tumble the whole ox-cart over.

weather it has better range or blast radius is almost secondary. it cannot be allowed to become the losing players "crutch" like some weapons have before.

with longer range weapons, larger better made maps will surface. I think the trade off of power for time is more acceptable than the 203 is now.
it will be more like using the hk nade launcher we have now. requiring a bit of forethought to get a clean hit.

 

[poaw]

with longer range weapons, larger better made maps will surface. I think the trade off of power for time is more acceptable than the 203 is now.

I think that's the wrong way around. We should wait for larger maps with longer and more realistic engagement ranges before we start breaking out the real firepower.

 

[striderteen]

I agree. That's an angle I hadn't considered before...I really want Infiltration to be all-out war with air support, armor, helicopters and such, but it's not really do-able on current map sizes (and the UT engine).

I had throught limiting suggestions to antipersonnell weapons would be enough of a limitation for now, but you're right, RGs are too powerful given the size and fairly closed structure of most Infiltration maps.

We need bigger, looser maps...not necessarily more open, but less structured. Star Trek Elite Force maps are complex and all, but they're tightly structured -- in the end, you can only go one way. Everything else loops back around or is a dead end. We can't have that. We have to have maps that are as open-ended as the real world.

 

[yurch]

Unfortunately, those are the maps that noone plays.

 

[Kuroshio Apocal]

EP being the first to come to mind.

 

[yurch]

and island.

 

[RAZZ]

when I first tried out this mod, I had to play it on coret with m-16's to get anything near a reality feel

maps have come a long way since.
now weve got everything from the large scale yet oddly fast moving 'extrmeme measures' map, to 'chiller' (one of my fave cqb vs bot maps )
and theme maps like trenched and atoll (which sit in the "they arnt 100% accurate but no one cares cause we're having too much fun" catagory)

I trust the folks making them will take any new weapon features into account on future projects.

like how the mounted machine guns been in for months. but the first time I found one put in a good position was on ballecourt(sp?) the other night.
(im not counting sicily or terrain cause, frankley, no one walks in front of em for me to shoot at )

if sentry makes the weapons, the maps will come.

 

[poaw]

The day the average outdoor LOS on a INF map is 350 meters then I will support the inclusion of rifle greandes. Until then they can wait.

Right now "the maps" still haven't come out that allow the M203 to be used realistically, and most of those that do, are 3rd party maps.

 

[RAZZ]

well, folks seem to have no trouble putting the 203 to use on the maps we have now. I dont know if how I use mine is realistic, but Im taking out the other team without hurting myself so its obviously working.
and we do have maps that are relatively large and are not boring to play, does it really matter where they came from?

I would say any map thats big enough to use a robar in sniper mode, or potentially large enough to operate a vehicle on, is large enough for rg's.
If the player blows himself up, thats a real life side effect of firing the wrong weapon at the wrong time
dont let one bad map spoil your taste for open turf combat.

right now Im using my famas/grenade launcher combo to good effect. aside from a horrid bulk value its been paying off. I think I could compensate for the added range and blast pretty well.
thats just my guess though.

 

[yurch]

Originally posted by RAZZ
but Im taking out the other team without hurting myself so its obviously working.

Thats kinda the problem - the m203 danger radius should be forcing you to duck out of the way when you fire it at most of the ranges I see it being used for...