REAL K9's in ACTION

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5eleven

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Mar 23, 2003
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I'll tell you, I was a K9 handler for several years, and this is twice as impressive to me.

I'd love to know exactly where these dogs are from. Having a dog leap onto and from a car to make an apprehension is pretty impressive. Having two dogs, make a simultaneous apprehension on a suspect, ignoring each other and neither dog keying on the victim is incredibly impressive.

Hooray for the Malinois!

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/policedogs.html
 

Rostam

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May 1, 2001
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Impressive, the newest in non lethal technology. Except I have a feeling those dogs can turn lethal if you don't protect your neck.

I have 2 questions though. First of all do the dogs realise this is training? Second, what are the chances of the dog attacking the wrong one, or a cop after the initial suspect had been taken care of?
 

Keganator

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From what I understand, the dogs are trained to be amazingly nice and playful. They consider it a game to do what they do. They're trained to only attack certain, non vital areas, and at a moment's notice, can be stopped by their handler. Some very impressive stuff.
 

5eleven

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Another myth - dogs going for the neck.

Just because they use the natural prey drive to train them to bite and hold, they aren't a pack of ravenous wolves. :lol:

Whaddaya mean do the dogs realize it's training? You mean like, "does your dog understand German?" Ummmmmm, no. The dog responds to commands - not in any specific language. Similarly, you train as you fight. Most bitework training exercises are to develop a specific behavior - same with muzzle work. Muzzlework teaches the dog to use other parts of their body and to fight without biting. You develop certain skills in training (only we know it's training, not the dog. Maybe if they evolve to being bipedal............ :D ) the dog applies the skills on the street.

@Keg. These are not (IMO) general patrol dogs. I would venture to guess that they are a little more, shall we say, aggressive. General patrol dogs usually release on command (USUALLY). These appear to require physical removal from the handler. Judging also by the appearance of the handlers and the training scenarios, these are "SWAT" type dogs. If it moves, locate, bite and hold, no matter what. While most dogs know the difference between work and play - my guess is that these fellaz don't get a lot of, um, how shall I say, human contact in their off time. They are straight work dogs. Mad as hell. :lol:
 

Rostam

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Explain a bit more about how dogs don't go for the neck, again? I mean when attacking you'll want to do damage, that means neck, right?

With if it realises it is training or not I mean exactly that. Does it realise his target is not getting hurt, does it realise the target won't hurt him. I can see how a dog isn't a genious but they could be smart enough to realise things like this.

Never mind though, for some reason there is this tone in your reply. Maybe it is me being tired and paranoid, but I really don't feel like getting in an argument.
 

5eleven

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Easy Ros, I didn't mean anything by it. Wasn't trying to argue or offend, just being a little sarcastic. Many apologies.

Most dogs are trained to go for an appendage. Generally an arm, but they will take what they can get. They are generally started just teasing them with a decoy wearing a sleeve. The dog isn't allowed to engage, but is tied out on a line with an agitation collar. Teasing, then running away, builds confidence of the dog. They think they've chased the hooligan off. Slowly, the sleeve is introduced. At the end of the agitation line, the decoy knows exactly how close he can get, and introduces only the sleeve. A hard sleeve. Feels weird to the dog, but the sleeve is quickly slipped and the dog gets the reward.

Without going on for hours, you work up to a soft, hidden sleeve and up to increasing agitation and fighting A hidden sleeve - one underneath a sweatshirt for example.

Once a lot of bitework and training is completed, and the dog gets it's first apprehension, it is not uncommon for them to bite then release immediately - because an unprotected arm feels completely different. But they get the idea, and begin to enjoy the game. Most people, when bitten, pull away or try to fight the dog. The agitation excites them.

There are also bite suit applications, to teach them other things.

By training - I guess that dogs know they get a bite as soon as they see that sleeve after awhile. So, I guess in a training scenario, in a way, they know that they get the bite so they get worked up. But what you are doing as training progresses is get more and more realistic, so the dog generally associates a hostile as a bite...........

That make sense? And again, I wasn't trying to insult you, sorry.
 

ant75

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Jan 11, 2001
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Although this is kinda of impressive, it seems much less useful when the dog doesn't go for the hand holding the gun, and that seems to happen several times in the video. Sure the attack can destabilize the guy, but maybe not totally incapacitate him. For example, in the exercice with the guy holding a handgun behind a car, he could probably have shot the dog after it grabbed the wrong arm (ie the one not holding the gun). Of course, when employing two dogs, it becomes almost impossible for the suspect to escape...
 

5eleven

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It doesn't work that way. It's a dog, remember? They don't recognize a firearm as a firearm. They react to gunfire, not because they identified a SigSauer in the suspect's right hand, but because they are trained to react immediately to the audible stimuli. The dog isn't remotely aware that the firearm is dangerous to itself - it reacts as trained. Generally called "handler protection". K9 deployment isn't perfect or risk free, it creates time, distance, a diversion, and sometimes a good, safe, clean apprehension. Probably would be better if the dog handcuffed the suspect too. Think about it: If you fire a weapon at an armed suspect, your point of aim is generally center mass. You don't try to shoot the gun out of their hand. Not being a smartass, just think about the reality of what you are suggesting.
 

Lethal Dosage

Serial Rapis...uh, Thread Killer
Sounds kinda like pig dogs.

They locate the target, chase em down, latch on and hold, waiting for the handler to arrive on the scene and order them off.

Pig dogs, when used responsibly, are great for hunting and can be much more enjoyable than shooting the pig.
 

ant75

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5eleven said:
It doesn't work that way. It's a dog, remember? They don't recognize a firearm as a firearm. They react to gunfire, not because they identified a SigSauer in the suspect's right hand, but because they are trained to react immediately to the audible stimuli. The dog isn't remotely aware that the firearm is dangerous to itself - it reacts as trained. Generally called "handler protection". K9 deployment isn't perfect or risk free, it creates time, distance, a diversion, and sometimes a good, safe, clean apprehension. Probably would be better if the dog handcuffed the suspect too. Think about it: If you fire a weapon at an armed suspect, your point of aim is generally center mass. You don't try to shoot the gun out of their hand. Not being a smartass, just think about the reality of what you are suggesting.

I'm not suggesting anything, i just had in mind that it would probably be more efficient if the dog would instinctivly bite the hand holding the gun. Since the dog usually go for the arm, biting the one holding the gun seemed to make more sense (at least for me) if you really want to neutralize the threat. I'm NOT implying that i know better than these guys, i was wondering, from my very limited experience of dogs, why it was impossible for a dog to recognize that someone is holding something in one hand and nothing in the other, or if it was a delibarate choice in their training.
 
Biting the weapon hand of a suspect might cause the weapon to go off, so I don't think it'd be too terribly smart to do so :) Then again, I'm not a trainer guy, so who knows. This is quite the neat thread, and I usually don't care much for dogs :) Also, seeing a a bi-pedal dog walk about is fucking creepy. I wonder if I can dig up that video again.
 

5eleven

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ant, I understand your premise, but in my experience it doesn't necessarily work that way. I've noticed a few distinctive things about dogs from when I was a handler. One is, especially during pursuit or active movement, once their "RADAR" picks up on movement, it locks on. Dead on. Most dogs, at least those that I have caught, tend to have a sort of "routine", and you can generally learn when and how a dog will hit during pursuit.

Training them generally to go after an arm, and then making them discern as to which arm they should go for becomes difficult. When the reward is the bite, it is difficult to discourage them from biting the "wrong" arm. You have to be relatively careful in bitework, it is a delicate balance at times between control and aggressiveness. When you are working with natural drive or instincts - their predecessors, when hunting, did not have to deal with weapons - the hunted animal was the weapon.

Sending a dog on a passive person and getting a bite is also a delicate balance, and very difficult. Remember, prey drive functions best in a fight. In this case, the dog will definitely take what they can get. Sometimes engaging in short, noncommital bites to get the movement and fight that they want. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it truthfully is not that encouraged. Several dogs these days are taught "bark and hold" not "bite and hold", especially on passive subjects or those that give up.

Again, some dogs are just naturals. We had a case several years ago where an individual took hostages in a dry cleaning business. After a several hour standoff, he exited the business, holding a rifle. He would not drop the rifle, but was not pointing it at anyone, just carrying it in one hand and stopped. One dog was sent from the other side of the building than the one I was on. The dog perfectly engaged the non firearm arm and drug him to the ground. I did not release my dog, but ran up with him on lead. Mostly because our team followed the dog's apprehension and subdued the suspect immediately. Besides, I didn't want my dog keying on the actions of the big guys in black.

Which brings me to another point. Remember, a K9 reacts to gunfire. Dogs do not discriminate. They may react to the handler's gunfire as well. Even though we train with handler gunfire, if my dog makes a mistake and engages me while in a firefight, I would rather he not be "trained" to engage my gun hand. Since I'm right handed, and the dog deploys generally from my left side, that sort of helps things. :D

Clearly, these dogs are presented with very hostile scenarios, and their training includes circumventing objects by going through or over them to get to the target. Most dogs, frankly, will try to go around an object for a bite, before they look at going over something. Again, highly trained dogs. Also remember, that judging by their training, they are good at what they do. Dog sends in these scenarios are not the end-all, they are a safer way for officers to approach and deal with armed individuals. Ultimately, the dog's life, although very valuable, is less valuable and more expendable than the officers.
 

Bushwack

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Harrm said:
PETA would have your head for that comment, however true that it is.

--Harrm
If you at all knew 5eleven like i do and his relationship with his dogs, you'd never, even in jest, make that statement or association :p

@Beer

Keys/keying= zeroing in, reacting to, attacking the movement/gunfire source etc.
 
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Harrm

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If you at all knew 5eleven like i do and his relationship with his dogs, you'd never, even in jest, make that statement or association :p

I'd bet you $20 I'd make that comment again, because PETA have the brain capacity of a can of Bush's baked beans. He's a K9 officer. That means he loves animals more than any other person on earth. I understand this completely, because you can never care too much for something that you consistantly train to put in harms way, especially a close friend like a dog.

--Harrm
 

5eleven

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beerbaron said:
What does keying mean?

Bushwack said:
Keys/keying= zeroing in, reacting to, attacking the movement/gunfire source etc.
Exactly.

Harrm said:
PETA would have your head for that comment, however true that it is.
Yes, that's true as well. However, looking at it realistically, I would rather bury a dog than a person. That's the long and short of it. I had to put my partner down about 2 years ago, and as Bush can tell you, that was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. I may be a dog lover, but Bushwack tops even me I think in that category. Ask him about his Pitbulls........anyone that says that those dogs are killer attack dogs, has never seen Roxy jump up on his lap, put her paws on his shoulders and lick his face for ten minutes. He has 3. They are all wonderful dogs. Well, except for that sneaky one he rescued from a life of severe beatings. That dog is scarrrrrrrred, but loved and cared for now, nonetheless.

Harrm said:
I understand this completely, because you can never care too much for something that you consistantly train to put in harms way, especially a close friend like a dog.
Truedat. :D
 

Crazy_Ivan

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5eleven said:
Another myth - dogs going for the neck.
It's a trained Alsacian in a controlled environment, not a half-wild Kangal ('turkish' sheepdog, about the size of a newfoundlander and usually 'bad-tempered' for house-dog standards) on beserk mode. While the alsacian will do the tricks that he learned (that is getting the suspect down so he can be arrested), the kangal will go for the kill if HE thinks it's needed for the protection of his owner

What a dog does when attcking a prey (whatever that may be) is part training part evolution. Police dogs (usually alsacians, but sometimes rottweilers for the riot squad) are selected by the service for their behaviour, the ones that don't get to the level that is needed are put back in the normal market.

Real sheepdogs (not the livingroom-proof border collies that show their skills in various competitions in the UK, but the real thing you find in areas where wolves (and sometimes bears) are common) are selected by nature. not being agressive at the right moment means dead dog. only the best ones survive and that makes for a certain genetic makeup