New DTAS

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

One reason to start this thread is that you will always have an up to date DTAS version on the first page.

But the more important one is a general concern I have with DTAS and new players. Adding new options might make DTAS more enjoyable, but the problem is that these many options makes it hard even for DTAS veterans to figure out the server settings.
I had some encounters with newbies on JgKdo and it was hard for me to give them a brief understandable explanation about whats going on in DTAS/Foxhunt. When I tried to give them a more detailed explanation most of them simply quit (or maybe went to a Point&Click-TDM server).
To solve this problem either I have to find a way to effectivly make DTAS understandable to newbies without spamming other DTAS player with information they already know (this is quite impossible IMO) or most of you can agree on ONE set of options I can hardcode into DTAS. For example though I like to have the new dynamic capture time, I think it is far to complicated to explain it to someone ingame.
To get this discussion started what would your answers be to the follwing questions:

Do you think that DTAS settings should be hardcoded, so all player know what to expect when joining a DTAS server or do you want to customize settings to the smallest to create completly different DTAS servers?
Do you think it will ever be possible for a majority of all DTAS players to agree on one set of server settings and what would it look like?

Do you wish DTAS to be a game mode which is only played by the (relativly) few people who understand it or do you think something has to be done about the usability to make it easier to understand for newbies? If you want the second one, how can you achieve it?

What information would you like to be displayed in the scoreboard and HUD (for example capture, kills in scoreboard or a countdown timer for capturing in the HUD)?

What do you expect in general from DTAS?

ChangeLog:
(InfilDTAS 1.61)
- (change) internal change of player in range check
- (feature) new admin commands "mutate DTASBeDefender" and "mutate DTASBeAttacker"

 

[{GD}Odie3]

Version 44 is running on {GD} DTAS SG Style! Server.

For changing DTAS for newbies... DTAS is not that hard, it takes what two or perhaps three matches to get if figured out? Also, from what I see there are what two DTAS Servers running? One NA and one Euro (perhaps two Euro's). Are our settings off that much?

I do not mind hardcoded settings to much so long most (if not all) agree on the settings. However, I do not think you will ever get all or even most players to agree. Good luck on that one.


BTW/Edit
Thanks for the new post on DTAS.

 

[Derelan]

The ultimate DTAS wouldn't allow blindcapping. The flag would initially be placed at the center of the team's spawn, then if the distance to the nearest wall was less than x meters, it would automatically go in search of a wide open location.

Also, vertical-capture shouldn't be allowed. If the flag is on X floor, you shouldn't be able to cap from X+1 floor.

 

[Lt.]

i think the .ini settings are fine, it may be hard to explain every little detail, but most new players quickly pick up on the concept of "Secure the objective with 2+ players", the defenders trying to do the opposite, and the gunfight that ensues.


for more sophisticated attacks it may be useful to know the exact .ini settings, but a newb just needs to know that we are trying to secure location X as quickly as possible, for as long as possible, and with as many people as possible.

keep the .ini settings, i dont see hardcoded settings adding more to DTAS then they would take away.



(on a somewhat related note, i would like to see [Jgkdo] or another server set their .ini to:
bShowFlare=True
bShowFlag=False
If realism is the name of the game, i would rather have redsmoke mark the objective then a gigantic fluttering flag that magically appears out of thin air, then flutters in the nonexistent wind. just my 2cents, tho.)


--------------
Edit: Derelan, the default setting provides a very tall capture cylinder the .ini can be used to limit captures to 1 horizontal plane. IMO vertical capture yes/no is just another argument for keeping the .ini settings available.

 

[zeep]

First of all, oh God please no not flare. There's nothing wrong with the flag, and there is with the flare. The smoke goes through walls, ceilings etc. I agree that from a realistic pov one would prefer a flare but i don't like it at all in DTAS.

Blindcapping is fine by me. Keeps it going. But i'm willing to try otherwise.

DTAS settings: Personally i think the more you leave up to other people, the more things can go 'wrong'. Hardcoded means it's a part of the game, live with it. Then eventually people will learn to play by set rules, adapt, or not play at all. Better that than everybody fighting over settings i think.

I haven't played a game with the new dynamic capture time yet so can't really say anything about that.

Dtas was fine the way it was to me. But nowadays additions/updates come very quick. I hope i get to try out all new things to the fullest.

/edit
Scoreboard doesnt need kills imo.
No need for countdown in hud neither.
* But i'm willing to try otherwise. All this is just imo. Countdown may be good now that i think about it.

 

[OpFor]

How about being able to "use" the flag to send up like 8 flares over the course of 5 minutes or something like that, if the team figures they need the extra light for defending?

 

[Lt.]

not illuminating flares, red-smoke signal flares.


yes the smoke does go thru walls, but so does the flag. (not 3 hours ago i was defending in Bocage and could see the flag flapping away, sticking right thru the wall.)

i just dislike watching a teamate crap out an 8foot flag,
sort of spoils the realism mood.


as for "things going wrong" with the settings i dont think ive seen any admins setting violently divergent variables that disrupt gameplay, if anything the .ini just allows them to correct any problems with DTAS on their server.



also, im all for losing the kills count. we dont need it.

 

[keihaswarrior]

I don't mind the kill count. Plus, it attacts more players which is a good thing. I don't think it makes people rush too much because the way the ranking works.

Copy Red Orchestra's capture system. There is a capture bar in the HUD that goes up when attackers have more than defenders in radius. The bigger difference between attackers and defenders, the faster the bar goes up.

^^^ This would be waaaay easier for new players to learn than the current system.

Blinding capping must stay, it works well in RO. A single attacker can capture if there are zero defenders in the radius, but it would take a long time for one person to cap.

A flare would be better if you could limit its height to only about 6ft. That way, it wouldn't go through cielings, but would still look more realistic than a flag.

Attackers always need 1 more person than defenders in radius to capture.

Hardcode the settings. We can always playtest them and give you feedback for changes, but all servers should have the same settings IMO.

 

[(SDS)benmcl]

I like the idea of the admins having control of the setings but I do understand the arguments against this and that you guys are probably right.

I wish I could find the time to play this now.

 

[Lt.]

but all servers should have the same settings IMO.

i really dont think our current DTAS servers are all that different as far as DTAS settings go... are they?

 

[- Lich -]

Well, sometimes weird things happen, I have to agree with KW in most points. The kills might get some TDM guys to play DTAS (although it is not too much fun when these are all in one team...). And this bar KW suggested may make DTAS easier to understand for new players.

On hardcode settings: I like the way as it is now, most can be set up by the admin. I like to be abled to play DTAS offline, with one attacker/defender needed, getiing bots to the flag is not always possible. It is very useful for small LAN games, too. The danger of it getting too complicated maybe the case if we had like 10 servers running DTAS with different settings, but as someone already said, this is not the case.

Summing up. Keep the ini settings, before u start hardcoding, maybe we get 'all' admins to run a certain setting.

 

[-Freshmeat]

As a total newbie, I do not find the concept of DTAS hard to understand, esp. since you can work towards the general objective without knowing the specifics. You know where to go, and you follow the people around you to get there without exposing yourself to much. I would love the idea of a capture bar, but I think it is not that high a priority.

As for marking the objective: The perfect solution for me would be if we had overhead maps. First, the defenders get shown where they spawn, and last man get to place area within 50 m or something of spawn. Then the attackers and defenders spawn, with the objective area marked on their maps. As in real life, nothing will actually point out the area that must be held. I know that it would take some work to get the maps done, but they could come really handy for teamwork if they had a coordinate grid corresponding to the one in ReportDirection. And given that only 20-30 maps are actually used for DTAS, we might make this a community effort.

-Freshmeat

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

Its vital for DTAS to have a standard which is the same on every server. Imagine you're a newbie and the last time you played DTAS on that other server someone explained to you that you can cap the flag in 10s together with one buddy. So, now you get into the radius with some other buddy, wait for 10s, nothing happens and you are pretty confident that there is no enemy player in range.
Now you get confused and/or angy, you risked you life for nothing, it just didn't work.
The reason for that may be that this server needs 20s or 3 buddies or whatever else, but you no longer care about it and just go and hunt down people. One more lost soul

There are a few possibilities to create this standard:
a) The few serveradmins that run DTAS agree on one fixed setting so that everyone can know game mechanics because they are allways the same
b) We try to agree on some settings and these will get hardcoded into the mut
c) We spam players with all kinds of messages what settings the server has. The problem is: it would be a lot of spam.
d) We make the mut more interactive with some kind of capture display. The problem is: This reveals some information about the number of defenders that are in range.

If someone comes up with an idea how to visualize the cap-process without revealing information about the number of defenders in the cap-zone this would be the most desireable possibility, IMO. But I doubt that it can be done.
So far I'd suggest a) or b).

 

[- Lich -]

Well, I would vote for A!

What about a simple variant of c:

Spam a message like:
Press f2 for capture rules

Just make sure every admin sets the f2 info screen in a proper way.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Blindcapping is good. Defenders have to examine the flag zone to see what it is the radius zone and where is possible to cap, and then secure it using teamwork.

Minimum 2 players to cap or prevent capping, of course. It really helps teamplay and tactics.

Progress bar is a good idea, but it have a problem, i like how you can´t know if the zone is defended by 2 tangos, and they are preventing the cap. You have to wait 20 secs to guess it.

 

[UN17]

I must be a very bad person because I think the newbie who gets "confused and/or angy" because the flag isn't capped in 10 seconds is a very impatient person. I think they should just ask "How long for a flag cap" instead of whining and running off to get killed. Personally, I have no idea why some people fear that slightly different settings on DTAS servers is going to ruin DTAS. The basic premise is the same no matter how many settings you change; "Walk to Flag, shoot everything." Any newbie can understand DTAS.

I'm against hardcoding. Keep it simple, keep it flexible. Not hard to output server settings to the player when they join.

By the way DTAS coder person: Can you make Fox & Flag placer random instead of last joined?

 

[ant75]

I agree with everything cleeus and zeep said.
The hardcoded solution seems like the better one to me. Plus, you jgkdos have a good team of tactical and team oriented players. I trust you for betatesting different settings and finding the best ones. And even if we find something we don't like afterwards, we can always bitch about it here.
The flare is no more realistic than the flag. Having a red smoke flare in a closed room would be the dummest thing ever.
And about the new scoreboard, the excuse of bringing tdm players to dtas is a very bad one. First, i see tdm as the opposite of dtas, and i don't think harcore tdm players will ever be interested in dtas. But mainly, i don't see why we should try to modify dtas to attract those players !!! Hell, you know what would get tdm players to play dtas more ? GET RID OF THE FLAG ! Seriously, dtas must mark its difference from tdm. No compromise.
Again i'm not saying that the scoreboard is the worst thing thing ever, i can live with it, but please don't give as an excuse that it'll bring more tdm players, you're just validating my point that it's really tdm-ish.

 

[{GD}Odie3]

a) The few serveradmins that run DTAS agree on one fixed setting so that everyone can know game mechanics because they are always the same

I like your idea and as the one of the NA DTAS Admins I'll work with you [I am sure Shan does not mind].

b) We try to agree on some settings and these will get hardcoded into the mut

As for hardcode settings, I think the should stay as ini files settings. I am sure we Admins can come up with a DTAS "standard" for online play. That way Offline Play can be whatever. Let us not forget our Offline players out there.

c) We spam players with all kinds of messages what settings the server has. The problem is: it would be a lot of spam.

As for spamming messages, GD and SG server uses ServerAds, this can be a great tool for getting messages to the players (over and over it you like).

d) We make the mut more interactive with some kind of capture display. The problem is: This reveals some information about the number of defenders that are in range.

Well the score board shows can show a Flag if you are in range. Why not have a Flag somewhere on the HUD that is displayed. If you have enough attackers in rank it blinks On/Off Red. If you need more Attackers the flag on the HUD is solid white.

Edit:
We should always try and bring TDM'ers into the game. The kill score is not that bad the way it has been done - IMO.

 

[Harper [Jgkdo]]

Version 1.45 is out (look at first post)

First of all thx for the suggestions. Well I didn't really expect that everyone here has the same oppionion about DTAS
Now to your posts:
I won't change capturing to line-of-sight only and won't add an ini option to prevent blindcapture either. It is an important part of DTAS and shouldn't be changed. In version 1.46 I am going to integrate Lich's proposal about spamming players to look at the server info screen (F2). Hopefully it will help newbies (who have developed the ability to learn something) to figure out what they have to do.

About the HUD bar or countdown timer, the reason for not having it implemented by now is the experience I have made with similar counters in EAS games. Take the villa on Tuscany for example. As long as you are a lonely defender being in there, you will be miraculously informed about any attacker entering the area (the timer starts). A single attacker on the other hand would realize that there are at least two defenders when the countdown don't start. That's a situation I wanted to avoid with DTAS. But if most of you find it more important to be kept up to date about the capturing just tell me, if enough do I will implement it.

Concerning kills in scoreboard, I haven't made a final decision yet (though I tend to let it in)
Is there someone who can absolutly NOT live with it and why not?

About random flag placer/fox. The current system allows any team member who thinks he can do better than the current flag placer/fox to take over from him by reconnecting. Choosing one defender randomly might choose the 'wrong' person for the job, so no change here.

Now to hardcoded settings, as you might have seen, I have already taken out some ini options in 1.45 on which I thought most can agree on. I plan on removing more of them in version 1.47, so everyone who wants to play DTAS offline should stick with the yet-to-be-released version 1.46. I will try to sort out all issues DTAS might still have in this versions. That means version 1.46 will be tuned for offline play (mainly through not removing the ini settings). And I will continue to make new versions with hardcoded settings starting with 1.47 (except there is any DTAS server admin who has some really convincing arguments against hardcoding)

 

[{GD}Odie3]

I assume I should put back on EAS triggered type map(s) for testing? Like Raid?

Installing on NA Server.

Can you set:
CapTime=20
bListFlag=True