Kevlar & Ceramic Bullet Proof Vest?

[Guest]

I was wondering what the possibility was to have both the kevlar bullet proof vest (BPV) and the US military issue ceramic plated BPV (I guess it's technically a flak jacket) in 3.0?

My understanding is that the Ceramic BPV can stop a 7.62 round, but weighs 25lbs too, good protection, but at a cost. I also don't know how many shots it will stop. I know that kevlar will stop multiple shots from small caliber weapons and high quality ones will stop a .357 shot (did you ever see the video fo the guy who developed the BPV shoot himself in order to convince police it would work? My goodness)

Just another thought for 3.0. Despite the fact that I am a graduate student, I am amazed at the time I spend thinking about INF improvements. All constructive feedback it welcome and I know that there are people with military experience/knowledge that could shed light.
CoffeyCan

[This message has been edited by coffeycan (edited 11-03-1999).]

 

[Guest]

R * O * A * D * M * A * P

READ IT!!!

 

[Guest]

"Bullet Proof Vest- This item will protect your vital organs from small caliber rounds and shrapnel. It will wear away from both the front and the back, but not at the same time. This will of course not protect your head, neck, and appendages." -Taken straight from the Roadmap.

Did you even read my post? While it is unspecified, the roadmap conveys that the BPV would be a kevlar one. I was talking about a Second, Different, BPV for 3.0. If you read the above you will see it talks about 'small caliber rounds', 7.62 is not small caliber, and my understanding is that it wont be stopped by kevlar. There is a big difference. One is 8lbs and made of kevlar, it is snug and generally form fitting, the other has ceramic plates put in the chest and back. It weighs 25lbs (sorry I dont know int'l weights) is bulky and uncomfortable.

I share everybody's frustration at questions asked that are clearly answered in the roadmap, they are tedious. I have read the roadmap numerous times, and double-checked to make sure that I didnt ask a question that has been covered. If I have made a mistake, show me exactly where my topic has been addressed, not a three word response.

Thank You.
CoffeyCan

[This message has been edited by coffeycan (edited 11-03-1999).]

 

[Warren]

Don't worry coffeycan- regardless of what others say about you /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif your question is very legitimate. We really didn't elaborate on that (and some other things) because we weren't sure how easy it would be to make attachments like BPV's on our 3rd person models. From the looks of it we may be able to proved 2 or 3 choices for vest protection, and maybe 2 choices of helmets. Heck, the 5.7x28mm rounds for the FiveseveN and FN P-90 weapons were designed to penetrate a bullet proof vest from a couple hundred meters!

Here's a quote: "The Five-seveN® fires the SS190 5.7x28mm ball round. This projectile will perforate any individual protection on today's battlefield including the PASGT kevlar helmet, 48 layers of kevlar body armor and the CRISAT target (titanium and kevlar). "

 

[Billdog]

Will we get Spectra stuff?

[This message has been edited by Billdog (edited 11-03-1999).]

 

[Guest]

I know that wounding was addressed in the roadmap, but for the sake of clarity, if you're wounded with a vest on, you'll be thrown, and you'll lose your aim, correct? It would be bad news to pour several shots into someones chest and then have them cap you in the head because they had a vest on and were able to retain their aim while being shot-obviously not realistic.

Thanks
coffeycan

 

[Billdog]

Warren, won't it be easier for us all if you cut/pasted all you answers into the roadmap?

 

[Warren]

LOL! sometimes it would be easier! Actually, when we add more detail with answers for you guys, I usually write them down, then when there is enough new things I'll make an update in one big lump. Unless something we have on there is just totally wrong or we change our minds- then it's usually immediate.

Getting shot with a BPV on will obviously throw off your aim, and depending on the calibur, throw you back or on the ground. We'll make that as realistic as possible too. We can't exactly have hitpoints on the vest like pixels on your screen, so what we'll probably have to do is make each side of the vest (front/back) have a certain amount of damage resistance in percentage. So depending on the calibur, if the math for the projectile's damage and the resistance of the BPV is a negative, flesh won't be penetrated, but the overall resistance percentage of that side (front or back) will decrease slightly (depending on the round).. this leaves a lot of space open for getting shot in the relative same area with a 9mm, but I don't know how practical it would be to then split the front or back into four sections F1,F2,F3..etc- it's just one of those things we can balance when the time comes- but at least you know where it's headed. I think our whole damage system should be a damn mutator in itself!! It's getting awfully complex, but rest assured we'll do the best we can.

 

[Repairman_Jack]

How will buckshot be handled? How about rifled slugs (now there's an Alt-Fire for you)?

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry, Coffeycan. You know, there're these ones that ask questions that were already answered several times.
Actually I didn't read your whole post, I only read some lines and screwed up.
I'll change that.

Neo

 

[Guest]

No worries, I share your frustration at 'geez, I got the best idea, how about firing prone?! Can you do it!?' Its quite tiresome. Thanks for your post though.

In a unrelated matter, did anyone read 'Black Hawk Down', the book about the Rangers involvement in Somalia (if you havent you should, it's excellent, but this ain't Oprah's book club)? I was reflecting on the whole damage thing and remebered that they interviewed a Delta Force member and he talked about shooting a Somali in the chestand torso area with a carbide tipped 5.56 round, 3-4 times from an M4, and the guy would stagger away. Now the person may have died after he limped around the corner, but thepoint was that it didn't put the enemy down. I thought it was an interesting aside for damage consideration.

Coffeycan

[This message has been edited by coffeycan (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

[Billdog]

coffeycan:

The shock of a bullet is overrated, the reason most people lay down when shot isn't that they have to, but because they discovered they've been hit (phycology). When you've been hit for real you don't feel it, as the body calculates you'r already a loss and it's time to fight for the things that can survive. From that point you can fight til you lose conscience. Unconscience occur when your brain can't get enough oxygen. So there is a good chance that a "dead" person survives 5 minute or more after the critical hit. Not even a pure shot to the head may kill at once (though the chance are very high).
The force of a bullet is the same as the total recoil. Pistol rounds have no more force than a brick falling a few inches. The chance of losing aim would therefor only occur with a arm, head or pressure-wave hit.

Warren:

May I suggest to hide the damage system, so that the health status is only indicated by symptoms, a hit location field, and a bleeding status. The hit location field would look like the UT armor field, marking the arms, legs, head, stomach and torso with a color when it has been damaged. The bleeding status will help you determine when it is time to bandage.

 

[Catalyst]

This is a pretty good idea, maybe have the wounded area on the damage indicator flash if the player is bleeding or something. I have also thought about not displaying ammo counts on the HUD since in real life you can't tell how many rounds you have left, but there are some things that you just need practically, so we still might end up using some kind of a number to represent health, be it a percentage or raw figure.

 

[Billdog]

How about displaying the ammo as small magazine icons. Then you can tell how many mags you have, but not how much they hold.

[This message has been edited by Billdog (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

[Repairman_Jack]

A minimalist HUD is a Good Thing(tm). You shouldn't be able to know how much ammo you have left unless you have an AUG or a P90 or some other weapon with a transparent/transluscent magazine.
On the medical icons, maybe a message when your almost dead, "I've fallen and I can't get up" /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------
SEZ
Jon
--an armed society is a
polite society-


[This message has been edited by Repairman_Jack (edited 11-04-1999).]

 

[Guest]

Billdog:

I think there are a couple of ways to think about this. First, despite being shot, theres the psychological factor that someone is shooting at you, likely from close range-panic would throw your aim off-hard to replicate in the game.

Second,If you could explain the recoil thing more I'd like to hear it. It seems that the speed of the bullet hitting the vest, dispersing the force would make a tremendous impact, which seems consistent with video I've seem of people being shot with a vest on, and self-report by cops that have been shot. I think of being hit with a brick from a couple inches and I cannot think of that as being shot-so Id like to hear more.

Good point on being able to function wounded, I think too that its like real estate- location, location, location. There's so many ways to look at this, which way does the shot enter the body, side, front, back, does it hit the central nervous system or heart vs. the internal organs or extremeties.

CoffeyCan

 

[farrp]

I think if you get shot with a big round, (ROBAR/DE .50) the effect should be somthing like the flash bang. To show the initial shock of the impact. Just an idea, not sure if its very realistic - can't say i've ever been shot while wareing a vest.

 

[Billdog]

Are you playing Infiltration to die or to win? When you'r finished talking about community, we both know it's to ace them all. And it's a tough trooper that ace them all right? Tough troopers don't panic, end of story.
The uncontrolled body movement of people being shot is in general spasms caused by trauma to the nerve system.

The force acting upon objects rejecting each other is always equal: The bullet flyes fast since it has a low weight, the gun moves slow but with more weight. By smoothening the recoil its influence can be lessened.

The reason that the bullet is lethal while the recoil isn't has to do with speed and surface. The smaller the surface of impact, the greater local force is obtained. This do also restrict crushing damage (pistols). The reason tissue is damage is the elasticity of the tissue, it's absorbation limit. This makes "the speed of a bullet" very interesting. Rifle bullet moves so fast that the shock wave inside the victim itself is lethal. Then there is bullets designed like the 5.56 to tumble when inside the victim making a mess if it happens.

When you'r feeling a shock you can't feel a lot else, therefore it would be easy to misjudge the actually effect. If you'r not trained in receiving hits, there is a good chance you will try to compensate to the "big" pull, and then loss aim by moving and not concentrating. Don't try this at home.

This is heavy stuff (coding): If the bullets penetrates the collision model, and it had internal collision hull to mimic important organs, a very realistic wound ballistic system could be obtained. If this were coded and run fast, you could perhaps get a license from Epic in trade.

 

[Guest]

I think that you and I talking about the same thing only from two different perspectives. Me- the tough trooper without the vest, and you- the tough tooper with the vest on. I dont think that it would help the 'realism' of the game to have someone with a BPV on, being able to shoot an enemy with perfect aim while they themselves are being shot. My main reason in asking that your aim be thrown when being shot having a BPV on, was to prevent the inevitable backlash by people getting fragged in the manner I described above, which I saw happen in another forum for another 'real life' game, which shall remain nameless /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

And of course I play the game to win, but winning in an unrealistic manner cheapens that 'win'. The guy that can take the hits with or without the BPV vest on and refocus to make the kill is the better player, not the amateur who gets the BPV and caps the veteran because he was able to retain his aim as if he was on a firing range.

The damage thing is very complex, I agree. I did some reading and found that it is basically physiology catching up to psychology. There is enough oxygen to make you move for 10 seconds, even after your heart has been destroyed. Some people would die instantly, other would be able to function for that window of 10 seconds. Its just a matter of your body catching up with your mind. This explains the seemingly inhuman feets done on battlefields when people are wounded. And I have no idea how to incopporate that into the game. I know that when I shoot a player, I dont want them doing anything after their health runs out. Maybe it should be majority rules, as most people keel over and give up the ghost after being shot and the inhuman acts are basically an anomally for what usually happens. If anyone would like to read more, cosult: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
or do a search for 'ballistics'

Later,
CoffeyCan

 

[Billdog]

How about a "coming home" bonus. The time scale of a standoff game don't allow the aspect of surviving wounds to take place other ways(?).
In exchange of eating damage when using a vest, you loss aim. That don't seem to be a bad trade to me.

When playing to win and that is done by obvious unfair conditions, I don't find the game fun.

The chance of a heart hit is low, the best you can hope for is a main artery. It will take at least 3 minute to blackout by the following blood loss.

B.