infiltration

[ShakKen]

Big misconception on your part dupre. the OICW is meant to SELECTIVELY replace the M16/M4+M203. That means that you will likely see soldiers carrying the OICW in one unit per squad.

As it is the OICW IS an overspecialised weapon. The 20mm is meant for fire support, and the being as the 5.56mm attachment has a barrel length of 10 inches, that makes it completely inferior to the M4 and M16 in terms of inherant accuraccy.

Therefore theatrical capabilities are also limited in comparison to the M4+M203(which will ultimately replace the M16.) The M4 is undoubtable more suited to MOUT and CQB in enclosed spaces such as indoors and enviroments of thick vegitation. As the OICW with it's greater bulk is less so.

Most battles are fought in low visability. and of differant elevations. The technology for the rangefinder will be taxed in enviroments of differant elevations and densities. The laser rangefinder chances being obsolete soon enough as DEW detection technology is coming into vogue.

Far more serious is the lack of logistical support for covert operations Meaning the OICW will likely not be accompanying Special Forces on cross-border INFILs.

As for Terrorist operating in the US, they can still do so with impunity seeing as US military forces are prohibited from conducting operations in the US.

ShakKen
Infiltration
3D artist
special operations consultant

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

"I tend to agree with ShakKen assessment of the OICW. Obviously you don't."

Where the heck did you get that from? I agree 100% with everything Shakken has said in this thread.

"I am comparing the OICW to the M16/203 with equipment necessary for its integration with the Land Warrior system."

Indeed, but what you actually said was "the OICW's weight is less than the M4/203"... and the same response from me applies, all those attatchments that got the M4/M203 combo up to 20 lbs in the article are NOT necessary for every member of the unit to have.

"The gun detaches and can be used as is with its iron sights in a snap."

Cool... so if you fall to the ground quickly to avoid incoming fire, and the front of the gun hits your intended cover wrong... snap?
I would rather have it very hard to get off than too easy. (And yes, I did assume that it would be harder, and I admitted it was an assumption when I said it... and I included an "unless"- I didn't say I *knew* what their plan was.)

"A stock can be mounted for use as a single weapon. A grip can attach to the grenade launcher and that can be used as a separate weapon."

And you're gonna carry all that around too, eh? Why not just go into battle with 2 seperate guns, that way you don't waste time screwing with the parts? And then you could get something even more compact AND more suited to self-defense than the 5.56 part, like a PDW or P-90. (And I didn't assume anything here, I knew you could do all that, but the point behind "2 guns in 1" is that you carry only one gun, not 1 gun plus a bunch of parts that you use to make it 2 guns.)

"The grenade can airburst, delay, and impact detonate by setting a button without reloading anything. There is a laser rangefinder, but you don't always have to use it to fire grenades."

This I wasn't sure about, and that's exactly why I said "IIRC" (If I Recall Correctly)... I don't claim to be a super robot that knows and remembers everything. Thank you for correcting my incorrect recollection, btw. I seem to remember a picture of a labeled 20mm air bursting, 20mm impact detonated, and 20mm practice round side by side. Maybe they've combined the 2 rounds together since that pic was taken *shrug*.

As for all that about the OICW completely replacing the M16/M4, and not being a specialized weapon: What Shakken said.

Sure, I know you read that they'll be completely replacing all sorts of things and become a standard assault weapon, but it ain't gonna happen. Before it was issued, the M16 was projected to replace 7.62 rifles that could outshoot it at long range, submachine guns that could make it seem slow and bulky for CQB, and even pistols that can fit in a standard pistol holster... but did it happen that way? Hell no.

But you are right about one thing, the M16 is already being phased out of the US military... but it's replacement is the M4.

_______________________
In Orwell's hell, a terror era comin through,
but this little brother, is watching you too.

[This message was edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] on Nov 12, 2000 at 16:59.]

 

[Dupre]

Whatever..

Okay, fine. The M4/203 will never be replaced. It is such a fine weapon system that it will stand the age of time forever more. The U.S. military is a fool for spending so much money researching a replacement for it. Why even bother? We have new technology, but we shouldn't even try using it because we're A-OK as is. Everything is just peachy with the way things are now. The enemies of the United States will never change, and the battlefields that wars are fought on will never change. Life is just a big thumb's up.

I apologize for even mentioning the OICW. I never knew you had so much hatred of it.

And the M16 family of rifles that you have so much acclaim for had its share of troubles in the beginning. Oh, yes. How many years did it take for it to become what it is now? But God forbid, let's not give any replacement rifle even half the same leeway.

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

*sigh*

When did I say I hated the OICW?

When did I say the M4 would never be replaced?

When did I say ANYTHING you just said?

All I said is that they should drop the 2 guns in 1 idea and make it it's own gun. The underslung 5.56 is a poor means of self defense (or attack, if you're that crazy) for the space it takes up, and the weight it adds to the weapon. For a backup weapon a pistol or PDW/P90 would be better, and for actually attacking or being somewhere closer to the enemy where you're likely to be attacked, other soldiers backing you up with M4's or the like would be best.

Like Shakken said, there will never be a super-gun that does everything. Assault rifles are versatile and unspecialized, sniper rifles can deliver very accurate fire to high priority long range targets, LMG's can suppress enemies or give alot of firepower to an up close ambush, bla bla bla... and now we have a long range, accurate weapon that can kill targets behind one-sided cover. Great.

_______________________
In Orwell's hell, a terror era comin through,
but this little brother, is watching you too.

 

[Dupre]

Grrr...

Read my previous post as "I AM GETTING TIRED OF THIS DISCUSSION". You're not going to change my opinion and I won't change yours. The bar bet is on the table. We'll wait seven years for the outcome. ENOUGH.

 

[owlofdoom]

you digress; we already have a weapon that is relatively lightweight, high ammo, and has a grenade launcher intergrated. can u guess what im thinkin of?

this puppy from aliens:

the m41 hero. was it 99rnds on clip? and like 5 for the 'nade launcher?

I'm that bird on Pestilence's shoulder

 

[owlofdoom]

i mean, if we are going to talk future, well, this has the oicw AND the rest completely outdated

I'm that bird on Pestilence's shoulder

 

[ShakKen]

The Armat M41A1 electronic-blowback carbine should only be loaded to 95 rounds to prevent jams. The tubular magazine of the PN 30mm grenade launcher holds 4 rounds.

The actual weapon used in the movie was a .22 caliber thompson submachinegun with a shortened remington 870 slung underneath.

/Me needs some time away from guns

 

[Zaptruder]

Zaptruder

on the issue of smart weaponry...

why didnt the people that fight aliens just use bio weapons?

flood entire areas, with something completely harmless to humans but absolutely lethal to aliens.



Ill tell you why... because reality has a strange way of been stranger than fiction.

"If anyone had wrote what's happening with the presidential elections right now as a script, they would've been laughed out of town"

So who knows? we might very well see in the next 30 years, as science progresses in all the fields that contribute to the construction of weaponry, small bullet sized missles, homing in on the enemy and liquifying them while accidental contact with anything else will be met with but a slight dent/bruise...



Welcome to Zap's Palace and Fine Emporium, featuring his harem of 1001 beautiful women and exotic goods.

 

[Lord_Bunker]

if you read any of the novels they have this sludge they can hit the aliens with that breaks down their resisstance to their acidic blood. kinda messy though.

Stupid remark coming soon!

 

[owlofdoom]

i think it was cause the wanted to keep the expensive buildings and stuff. thats what the guy says. and thats why they didn't use orbital bombardment. that and the aliens hadn't been studyied to muhch.

ANYWAY, when you can tape a heavy machine gun, a flamethrower, and an assault rifle together, yet still look sexy when you cary the things,
well, then those are some nice lightweight reliable guns.

plus the motion tracker was cool, too

*NOTE: please do not listen to my brainless ramblings. i really cannot form too much more than a half baked thought*

I'm that bird on Pestilence's shoulder

 

[Dupre]

Actually, Vasquez wanted to roll some CN-20 and nerve gas the whole place and Hicks pointed out that they didn't know if it'd affect the aliens. Personally, I think the smart guns and the sentry guns beat the pants off the pulse rifles. "Let's rock!"

If anybody is into airsoft guns, they have mod kits that let you build pulse rifle replicas.