Folding Stock Robar

[Dupre]

Originally posted by Tiffy
I totally disagree with this point. The man WAS using very specilised equipment. He was using a Heavy barrelled MG on a stiffened mount fitted with a scope to shot a single round. Hell I can't think of anything more specilised. M2's aren't regular issue to even US snipers last time I looked.

And this is were I disagree too. As it may, the M2HB isn't specialized equipment. It wasn't a weapon designed for sniping. He may have improvised it for the role, but John Browning never designed the gun with that idea in mind. He probably zeroed the weapon to fire out a mile and practiced a few shots to get a feel for the machine gun. But then again.. what sniper wouldn't range his weapon prior to hitting the field with it? He consistently won the 1,000 yard shooting competitions while in the USMC. Shooting past that range wouldn't be a huge leap for a man of such skill.

 

[Gholam]

Dupre, you're contradicting yourself. You're taking a story of the single best sniper of the whole USMC, using a custom piece of hardware, and extending it to all snipers. Fact is, M2HB is not a standard issue item for snipers, for a very simple reason: it weighs 58kg on a tripod mount, and that Carlos Hathhock guy fitted it with metal plating further increasing the weight. Moreover, he modified the gun itself, by adding a high-powered scope and changing the trigger group to single shot. There is a grand total of 1 (one) such systems in existance in the whole world. There is also 1 (one) Carlos Hathhock. A Mark 7 16"/50 rifle is completely standard issue item for Iowa-class battleships, and though it'd make a fine weapon for hunting... well, anything, a hunter with such a rifle would be using a very specialized piece of equipment for the job. Your average US Army, USMC, or IDF sniper carries either an M24/M40A3, or an M21, or an M82A1, and his aiming skill is below that of Carlos Hathhock - if everyone shot that well, how would he have won all those competitions? In the case of M82A1, he's also not going to be firing at single people, because with every shot, he risks revealing his position (and getting a 120mm mortar shell for a present), and for that risk, he's going to stick to his role of taking out material - jeeps, trucks, light APCs, etc. You tell me, for the risk of revealing your concealed position, would you take a 50/50 chance shot at a single soldier, or a 100% guaranteed shot at RAZZ's beloved LAV to set it afire with everyone who is inside?

Edit: this might be a case of civilian and military logic clash. Keep in mind, that for civilian gun owners, tinkering with guns is perfectly normal, while for the military, it is extremely frowned upon, and in most cases expressly forbidden.

 

[RAZZ]

I did a quick Google search

http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/Carlos.html

This the guy?

Hathcock once recorded a kill from two thousand five hundred meters using an M2 .50 caliber machinegun with a side-mounted scope-- one of his own innovations.

Looking up the ammo numbers at snipercentral.com

-915 drop(7.62) vs zero drop(.50) at 1000m sounds like it would make a more predictable long range round, dosent it?
its got much less windage too.

There they reccomend not using it over a mile on human targets because of the rifles weight and the lack of match grade ammunition in this size on the market.

with a more recent rifle design and properly made round, whats to stop someone from making kills at a miles range?

 

[Gholam]

Originally posted by RAZZ
with a more recent rifle design and properly made round, whats to stop someone from making kills at a miles range?

Several reasons:

1) Getting the opportunity to take such a shot. In an ideal world, a sniper is fighting on a totally flat table, but in reality, your visual range will often be limited to less than that amount. In urban combat scenarios, you will usually be limited to under 100m - no wonder some IDF units use rifled shotguns with slugs for sniping (yes, I'm pimping the Mossberg 695 again). Most shots in open terrain happen at ranges of 600-1000m, and for that, 7.62x51mm/.300 Winchester Magnum/.338 Lapua Magnum are quite enough.

2) When you're a sniper, you have to be extra extra careful when you shoot, especially with a large caliber rifle, because muzzle flash and dust kickup can get you spotted, and then you're dead meat unless you haul ass away. This risk in mind, would you shoot the first enemy soldier that comes into range, or wait for an APC to appear and then torch it?

3) Even if you do have an opportunity for a 2.5km shot, and the target is good enough (say, enemy general inspecting front lines), simple fact of the matter is that there is just one Carlos Hathhock - rest of us, including snipers can't aim as good as he does.

 

[RAZZ]

Just because you guys dont need it, dosent imply our military wont use it.
The american military dosent have trouble finding people a mile away that they want to kill.

Considering that 20 year old gun designs based on ww1 weapons with improperly made ammo are capable of making the shot.
a modern rifle with match ammo and modern optics benefitting from an operator trained in tactics used by Carlos Hathhock himself, should have no trouble in killing someone at a shorter range.

 

[Tiffy]

Whys this turning into an US and THEM argument. At no point has Gholam or myself denegrated the skill of this man, but now suddenly ONLY the US Armed Forces can do this and everyone else is incapable.

Personally I resent this implication, particalarly made by people who don't know what they're talking about.

I'm not going to get drawn into an argument about the merits of one countries armed forces over another, but will AGAIN re-iterate what I said before.

It is possible to hit someone at a mile range, but luck plays a significant part. As a Snipers primary job is to gather Intelligence, with a secondary task of incapacitating HIGH VALUE targets, the likely hood of a sniper actually trying the shot are small.

No matter HOW good a shot the person is the grade and quality of the ammunition has a marked effect on accuracy, and even if using the BEST ammuntion available the physical manufacturing process the is used in the construction of the Rifle will limit the accuracy. A rifle never shoots in the same place twice, thats why you can't bench rest a weapon, fire five rounds and have just ONE hole in the target.

What Gholam has said is correct, I really don't give a flying-**** for what some guy or another once did, no matter what his nationallity is. We are talking about the average person here. Hell if any of you acctually ended up in a real combat situation I'd be surprised if quarter of you would do anything remotely constructive and probably only about 10% would actually be effective, and that figure INCLUDES all our serving and ex-regulars.

So don't come on here telling people that because one guy did this then everyone can, and don't try and tell me that M2HB Browning HMGs with high powered scopes are standard issue to Snipers.

Why don't some of you people take some time and acctually read what some of the real life Service Men amongst us have to say. There not making it up, and you all know who's had military service here. I really get fedup with constantly having to say the same thinks over andover because some civy read a book once, or god forbid watched a film, and thinks he knows better.

If you think whats being said is wrong, then state why you think its wrong and make a rational argument. Don't just keep spamming the same crap info saying well Chris Ryan said it so it MUST be right

Sorry for the rant.

 

[ShakKen]

FYI, it's not uncommon for horizontal drift with 7.62x51mm NATO to be up to 8 meters at 1000 meters in crosswinds.

 

[jaunty]

Here's a REALLY dumb question.


Which military organisation actually uses the Robar RC50? (Or RC50F for that matter)

As for the whole 1337 sniper debate going on, correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest distance a confirmed kill (using small arms) has been recorded at is 1800m by a Barrett M82A1 in Desert Storm, right?

I'm sure he took a shot or two before he actually scored that kill, or he had a great deal of time and a very still target in an ideal environment to compensate for windage, range and all that crap.

 

[Gholam]

This was discussed already in another thread Jauntry, it appears that RC50 isn't milspec... it went into Inf before the milspec-only rule, along with DE and PSG-1.

 

[Snakeye]

That sniper-history link was quite interesting. I personally found the two finnish sniper most impressive. More than 400 kills with open sights is what I call real skill.

As for Hathcock and his 1.42 miles kill:
Since it's recorded I'll believe it; I also read a biography of him, and he scored several kills at long distances using a M2HB; so what does it tell us? He obviously had a position which enabled him to engage targets at a range, where no return fire was to be expected; and he was an exceptional shot. Unfortunately not all snipers can expect such conditons all the time.
I was more impressed by other kills Hathcock made, which showed his tactical skill more - he and a fellow sniper were able to pin down a larger NVA unit and decimate them, until they could call in artillery.

BUT don't expect you can do the same with any gun. At more than 2200 meters hitting a man-sized target(with a small arm or a MG on single shot) is pure luck, even if you can compensate for wind, movements etc. To compensate wind and movement is skill, but to hit is luck - unless you invent a laser rifle with 0 MOA accuracy..

Snakeye

 

[OICW]

My Inf dream- bye bye DE, PSG-1 (replace it with MSG-90), Robar (non-mil spec) and possibly the G11, though some German special forces units use it occasionally IIRC.

 

[RAZZ]

hows about you all make an mp5+beretta only mutator and let everyone else enjoy some variety