EAS compared to other games?

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Apr 11, 2002
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mat69 said:
Quake is not really an engine for terrain maps

Um, you talking about the Quake 3 engine, right? The same one that was used
for Jedi Outcast? The same one used for Call of Duty? The same one used for
Return to Castle Wolfenstein? All 3 of these games had expansive outdoor
terrain, so it is very possible to do in Q3. Also, there are many outdoor Q3 maps
that I have seen in gameing videos, such as the badge.
 

mat69

just fooling around
Dec 9, 2001
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Um, yes I am talking about Quake 3 (!) Eninge.
Um, you are talking about the Unreal Engine when takling about Wheel of Time?!
Those engines live, the Quake Engine has been heavilly modified for RTCW (+EE), Jedi Outcast, SoF2 or whatever. You are not takling about the Quake from 2000, I do!
Tell me those beautiful outdoormaps for Q3 (I do not know any videos, because with my transfarelimit ...), really tell me some. Will you name some of the Urban Terror maps now, if yes, compare them with DM-INF-Vietnam and then tell me what looks better. Unreal had outdoormaps which are more beautiful than most of the outdoormaps for Quake imo.
 

w00p

Windows at its best
I only know ET and TTR outside of INF.
TTR is quite similar qua the mission thingy, but its slightly less realistic and plays a little more rushy-run-gun style unless you find yourself a good team.

ET however is uncomparable. I struggle in my words everythime I say ET and INF in the same sentence.
RTCW plays worse than CS online, mainly because of the fact that you run like in UT, you have weapon models that look like they're made out of mais and put in the oven to *poof* up like popcorn.
The only fun thing about it is proning with an MG42 and pinning the enemy team in a choke point reading the spam "OMG U R TEH G3Y C@MP3R!!!1!" :rolleyes:
 

Big_Duke_06

Charlie Don't Surf!
May 25, 2003
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w00p: Yes, ET and RtCW are totally unrealistic. But you know what - when I'm in the mood for run-n-gun arcade play, nothin' can touch 'em. And I don't think that even the EAS gameplay promotes teamwork like the classes and objective setups in ET and RtCW... You just have to suspend disbelief while you play them.

Matthew
 
Apr 11, 2002
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mat69 said:
Um, yes I am talking about Quake 3 (!) Eninge.
Um, you are talking about the Unreal Engine when takling about Wheel of Time?!
Those engines live, the Quake Engine has been heavilly modified for RTCW (+EE), Jedi Outcast, SoF2 or whatever. You are not takling about the Quake from 2000, I do!
Tell me those beautiful outdoormaps for Q3 (I do not know any videos, because with my transfarelimit ...), really tell me some. Will you name some of the Urban Terror maps now, if yes, compare them with DM-INF-Vietnam and then tell me what looks better. Unreal had outdoormaps which are more beautiful than most of the outdoormaps for Quake imo.


Actually, no the core game engine was not modified for RtCW. RtCW is
entirely game content. Every one of those games uses the exact same BSP
engine and tools that Quake 3 used, and the level that I speak of with lovely
terrain involves rolling green hill with a castle. The terrain is smooth and well
rounded, similar to what is seen in Tribes 2 or UT2k3(if not as poly intensive)

This is not about which engine is better, so no I will not make a comparison
for your fanboyish ass. You said Quake 3 can't do open terrain which is
wrong. I said it can and gave examples. Now you have called me a liar and
thus this I shall leave you to you pathetic ignorance.

On a closing note: I like the UT engine. I like the Torque engine. I like the
Quake 3 engine. I like the X-Ray engine. I like the Doom 3 engine. I like the
UT2k3 engine. I do not give a flying **** which engine is better. I do care
about which game is more fun.
 

-Freshmeat

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Dec 4, 2003
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About engines. I am not sure about RTCW, and I think you are right that no modifications to the engine was made. Raven hacked it up pretty good for SoF2 and other products, and there are some very handy improvements for outdoor levels. I am quite sure that CoD also uses an extensively modified engine.

The real change, however, is that the map compiler is being constantly improved (Now at 2.5.12 or so, new one about every two months) So you can make a lot of really pretty things in Q3 now that you could not do in the first place.

I think that it is not so much about what engine is 'better', but what it is good at. UT draws all polygons visible, and takes a lot of time to find out which polys that are so. Quake-based technology, however, splits the map into a lot of areas, and precalculate from each area what other areas can be seen. If you stand in an area, Q3 draws all polys in all areas that you can see part of from your entire area. It means it draws a lot of unescessary (sp?) polys, but is real fast about finding out what to draw.

This difference has important aspects for level designing. Quake requires that you break lines of visibility between major areas of you map, because if you can see a small part of it, all will be drawn. This is what makes it almost impossible to make a map like Ruins or Stalingrad, as almost all areas can be partly seen from all other areas. The same goes for any forest style map. The alternative is to use fog. It is then possible to cut off all polys at a certain distance, but the original Q3 engine is horrible slow at making fog (This is an area where the SoF2 engine mod really shines).
It also make it difficult to make smooth-running terrain, as most types of terrain does not have the all-important visblockers that you need to cut down on excess polys. It can be done, but requires a lot of time and skill on the mappers part.

However, If you make fairly enclosed spaces, you can make sure that almost all drawn polygons are drawn where you can see them. And each polygon is drawn much faster, because the engine does not have to spend a lot of time figuring out if the poly should be drawn or not. Thus Q3 handles better for maps with welldefined areas with only little contact between each other, and most passages will not be straight in order to block of visibility. In realism terms, this convert to urban areas with inaccessible rooftops, rather than open country. A competent mapper could do a far more detailed version of A City Block for Q3, but not a Ruins.

DS-Trainingground could be done even on both engines, as their structure dictates that you are able to see most of the map from most of the map. However, if a map like DS-Trainingground was ported poly for poly to TC, most players would think it looked to "blocky", as some of the polys used are quite big. An equivalent Q3 map would have raised the cliffs, so that you would have narrow passages up to the plateau. You would still have as many access points, but they would be more enclosed. Further, the half-raised cliff between the spawns would be fully raised, and a bit broader. Thus, you would be able to make some vis-blocking of the map, and be able to raise the number of polys in each area (I have given this some thought with a conversion in mind, but I have no time to start another mapping project right now). I am not saying that open land cannot be done, just that there is a price to pay for it.

-Freshmeat (Ok, I write to much and work to little)
 

Da_Blade

Da sharpest man around!
Jan 29, 2002
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Jesus Demo, you get stepped on your toes easily eh?

Now you have called me a liar and
thus this I shall leave you to you pathetic ignorance.

I never saw mat69 call you a liar, and if missing knowledge about game engines is "pathetic ignorance" you got some screwed up priorities in life. Cool it down man, it doesn't suit you.
 

mat69

just fooling around
Dec 9, 2001
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Demosthanese said:
Actually, no the core game engine was not modified for RtCW. RtCW is
entirely game content. Every one of those games uses the exact same BSP
engine and tools that Quake 3 used, and the level that I speak of with lovely
terrain involves rolling green hill with a castle. The terrain is smooth and well
rounded, similar to what is seen in Tribes 2 or UT2k3(if not as poly intensive)
[...]
As I know (or better think, because I think to have read it in a game-magazine, ok they suck most time, that could explain it ;) ) and read they have modified it (in most Q3-Engines games, but I do not know it about RTCW). Edit: [Ok, I am reading now that it was "enhanced" at least for SoF2 --> http://www.planetsof.com/sof2/technology.shtml
So modified was not the correct word.]
But that is not so important, maybe I was wrong on this point - and it was just only the level tools - ok then I have "learned" something new.
I think terrain needs more than only smoothness, but that's why I posted "imo".
Freashmeat sums my opinion pretty good up. :)
[...]
This is not about which engine is better, so no I will not make a comparison
for your fanboyish ass. You said Quake 3 can't do open terrain which is
wrong. I said it can and gave examples. Now you have called me a liar and
thus this I shall leave you to you pathetic ignorance.
hehe, you're a funny "ass". :D
I never worte which engine is better or something so please read it and do not overinterpret it. I like the quake engine, as well I like the UT engine. I think you can do more with the Quake Engine (levelwise), but I think the UT engine is easier to modify (gameplaywise --> mutators). And I never wrote it can't do open terrain, I wrote that this engine was not really an engine to create open terrain - other engines (like tribes which you mentioned) are better for terrain - and that I do not know levels which are nice outdoor levels (otherwise I would not ask) --> in fact in my opinion, and I like to see new levels.

Hell if I'd care which engine is better or not I'd not play old games, I play games not because of the engine, but because of the game.
 
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ZIRB

Inhuman
Feb 24, 2001
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Now I have a PC...

Sorry for digging up this old thread but it feels relevant. Since about two months ago I'm a PC-owner; before only Mac so now I had some time to test myself some of those other games out there. In short there are a bunch of games that really blows my mind in many aspects (graphically for example) but I really, really, REALLY miss the weapon simulation from INF! :-(
If I ignore that I think the BF1942-mod DESERT COMBAT on the whole creates the coolest gaming experience I ever had so far but still those damn cross hairs ruin SOME of the fun. I'm totally sold to the gaming Battlefield-concept (especially in Desert Combat) where u can drive all vehicles in huge landscapes... For example is such a enormous kick to teamwork in for example a BlackHawk chopper; one guy is pilot, to guys are gunners! So unbelievable damn cool! Often the fights are so intense that it really feels like a real battlefield with explosions and bullets everywhere!

But still the perfect game in my world would be a game close to DESERT COMBAT combined with the weapon simulation and much features of the player simulation from INF. By the way; I haven't stooped played INF but it has more competition now!

Wanna see some pictures from my PC-gaming? Click here! ---> http://tinyurl.com/36t6a