Digital view through a 6x Remington Scope

[Logan6]

Well, I've said that I think the scopes views need to be tweaked, that they bounce way too much. So here is a view through a 6x scope with a digital camera. A little more twitchy than usual cause my arm was about to die after 20 tries of getting it right. This is in a crouch aimed at an old pool pump so you can get a good idea of scope twitch. Half way through the mov I move the scope up a bit and then over a little so no thats not drift .
Thats intentional movement.

So, here is real video and everyone can decide for themselves.

Right click on the link and select "save target as" to download.

Scope View .250 Savage, 1-9x Remington variable scope. Shot at 6X.

edit: Oh, and its about 4.5 MB and 15 seconds long in case anyone was wondering.

 

[-Freshmeat]

Logan, thanks for providing this input. However, if it is to be made usefull, we need to know how far away and how big the pump was. To make it even more usefull, it is needed to have several movies of the same setup to make a guess about the average drift, and movies with different persons and different rifles. I have software to make measurements on digital video, if you are willing to provide the raw material.

-Freshmeat

 

[Logan6]

Agghh! It took me 20 minutes to get that shot! But maybe I could try again. The scope is at 6x, the pump is out at 25 meters, and is 1 meter high by about 1 1/6 meters wide. I'll try to get some more shots that are more on the fly now that Im a little used to trying it. My arm was getting really tired on that video. Thats the only scoped rifle I have, but maybe some other people with rifles and different scopes could get some shots, some at higer powers. Would very nice if someone with a Leupold 24x scope could get some shots and measurements for the .50.

 

[sublime]

I want to see a photograph (or better yet a movie) of how you have that set up. Distance from the camera lens to the scope would also be useful. Did you secure the camera to the rifle or did you just hold it there? Is the rifle resting on anything or are you just holding it? Can you take a shot of how you're crouching as well? The more details, the better here. Maybe have someone else take shots of you (or even a movie!) while you're doing these tests. Showing how the view changes with more drastic movements would also demonstrate more than this simple shot. Also, why is the angle so skewed?

The total lack of parallax in your shot makes me think the camera is secured to the rifle directly, which of course isn't how real life works unless you've managed to weld your cheek to the rifle.

 

[Logan6]

Lol, I wish I could secure it. No the camera was just being held up to the scope and I was monitoring it all with the 3 inch viewfinder. The shot was from the typical crouch as it is in inf and I was holding the camera with one hand, the butt braced against my shoulder and my hand holding the stock, so the rifle was really only being held with one hand. Don't know why the angle is so screwed up, the camera was straight when I shot it. The camera lens is about an 1 inch from the end of the scope, just about where your eye would be. An intersting point is shows is that all is not blackness around the scope when you are looking through it. This is how it is when normally looking through a scope as well. You can still see somewhat what is going on around you. I'll see what I can do about getting someone to take a picture of me and rifle crouching so you can see the position. Try and get some video standing and looking through the scope also. Don't know if its going to be possible to get it prone. As for parallax, I was doing my best to avoid it, because I hardly get much parallax at all with that scope in real life ( 99% not ). And when you get parallax while trying to film, you can hardly ever get the real view back. It would be nice if some other people could get some shots from their rifles.

 

[sublime]

Let me get this straight...you held the rifle stock with one hand, pressing the butt against your shoulder using only the force from that hand, all while holding the camera with the other, up near the scope. You did this without the camera slipping even a fraction of a millimeter and the gun only moving slightly. Pretty damned impressive. I'd love to see a movie of you making this movie.

Oh, and what about the other questions I asked about distances between the lenses, the skewed angle, total lack of parallax, etc.?

Edit: Thanks for your edit.

 

[Logan6]

Well, thats why it took me 20 minutes and about 10 trys to get what I got. Once the parallax starts going it goes all wierd, but its possible.

 

[sublime]

Sigh, you really need to go back and read the last 4 years of posts here or at least search for things before you post them. The UT engine can't do the view around the scope without giving you seconds per frame instead of frames per second. It's been discussed dozens of times or more. We know it's not black but it was the best option available to us with this engine.

 

[Logan6]

Yeah, I imagine it would be pretty hard but it sure would be nice. But I can live with it being black. As for me filming the filming, I've only got one camera.

 

[Cleeus[JgKdo]]

nice video, exspecially that the view-bob is pretty different from the INF bob. The INF bob is much too regular IMO, human movement is a bit more random.

 

[AlmostAlive]

I can hold my breath for 15 seconds and get the exact same result as you did. In fact, I bet I can do even better. And here's the thing : You CAN in fact get a steady view in Infiltration for 15 seconds too. Actually, it's even more stable than what's seen in your video.

The big question is, how does this work on a battlefield. Bullets hitting the wall behind you, bullets whizzling 2 inches away from your head, perhaps after you have ran from trench to trench for cover the last hour or two. Setting up a 15 second test in your backyard is one thing. I seriously doubt it's representative for the conditions you get exposed to on a battlefield.

And here's the million dollar question : How do you emulate the conditions on a battlefield in a virtual enviroment, on a graphics engine that's 5 years old? My wild guess is that the current system comes pretty damn close.

 

[Logan6]

Well, yeah, you probably can get better. Felt like my arm was going to fall off after trying to hold that rifle steady for 20 minutes straight. But I think that the view in the video, minus the really fast jitter from my exhausted nerves, is realistic. My problem with the scopes in INF is they move around way too much. On that video, I wasn't holding my breath. I never do. I might breath a little more slowly as I'm holding steady on my target, but I never stop breathing. Casually just looking through the scope and spotting is about the same movement in real life. To get the movement you are getting in INF I have to actually move my rifle about an inch to an inch and a half in either direction. Thats a lot of movement, even in the worst of battlefield conditions. I can't imagine a trained soldier doing that in the field. At least I hope hes not on my side . The movement I see on the scopes now would mean I am gulping for air, totally exhausted, my nerves are shot, and I can barely lift the rifle, especially on the PSG and the Robar. I think Toad's Truescape mutator got pretty near realistic, though it also has some wierd swings every few seconds and you cant hold down the alt-fire to concentrate. Now as you get tired and exhausted, sure there should be a little more movement in the scope. But even then I don't think I would be moving my rifle an inch to an inch and a half.

 

[keihaswarrior]

Sigh, you really need to go back and read the last 4 years of posts here or at least search for things before you post them. The UT engine can't do the view around the scope without giving you seconds per frame instead of frames per second. It's been discussed dozens of times or more. We know it's not black but it was the best option available to us with this engine.

That isn't entirely true. Check out how Duke did the XM8 scope. Even though the area outside the scope is zoomed also (this is why you get good FPS still), I think it looks dam good.

The only error with the XM8 is a small clipping error and it covers up the HUD in OpenGl.

I agree with Logan that Toad's mutator had a more realistic looking scope bob. INF's is pretty good, but it could be improved.

 

[Psychomorph]

I think the idea of an unzoomed view outside the scope is not new and was posted here a long time ago, and the devs allready told it is not possible with this engine, but it is something I dreamed of a long time.

It is possible with the UT2004 engine. The Mod "Red Orchestra" has it. But RO has it only with the 3D model scope, not with the sprite, but it looks awesome, if you move the rifle and see all zoomed stuff inside the scope moving faster, than the same small things are moving slower outside the scope view, thats great.

 

[Logan6]

Yeah, I think it would be possible in the 2004 engine, mainly because its made to run on much faster computers. I can't see why it would be impossible. Would be much nicer. Now if someone would just do a mutator to correct the scopes. Yurch? Duke? The problem with toads mutator is like I said above, it seemed to have some weird swings once in a while that totally threw you off, and you couldnt' concentrate. My experience with scopes is that when bring the scope up it takes you about a second to bring the rifle steady, and then its like your concentrating in the game. Movement of the scope is very steady and then when you stop moving it takes you a second or two to concentrate again on the point you want exactly. Its hard to keep the scope totally still on concentration, it allways tries to just barely move a little. I think toad got that right when his scope wasn't doing those wild swings. You could see the crosshairs just barely moving a pixel or two over, then a pixel or two down, then a pixel or two up, slowly and randomly as you were trying to concentrate on your target. Now as you lose stamina the effect should widen slightly as your arms and body are getting tired. If your wounded the effects should get worse than that as your heart is pumping fast, adrenalines rushing, your gasping for air, and your in a lot of pain.

Also I wish someone could improve on Toad's climbing mutator, so you could climb over low walls by reaching up and grabbing the ledge then pulling yourself up. Hate when I can't clear a wall thats only about 5 feet high. Becuase of this you allways feel kind of trapped and guided by the maps. Like how his mutator also helped you get out of windows by letting you jump while squatting. Kind of unrealistic jumping while squatting, but it appears to be the only way in the game to crawl out of a window.

Glad to see some people taking interest in the scopes issue.

 

[Psychomorph]

What I want to point out, is that byside the breath you have also a handshake which makes sniping harder. It seems to me that INF got only the breath, cuz if you hold breath your sniper is still as it is on bipods, but that can´t be true, even with lighter snipers. If you hold breath you definitely are able to steady the gun so the shake is very low, but it allways exist, thats why sniping is better from prone, or layed on things, or bipod, cuz not the breath makes sniping while standing hard, but the hand/armshake.

In INF you can snipe accurate from standing with the Robar (!!!) if you hold breath.