CTF - Does it need improvement?

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-AEnubis-

fps greater than star
Dec 7, 2000
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The Nicest Parts of Hell
Concerning the TL, most CTF variations have some form of accellerated motion for non-flag carriers. Making it more sporting for chasing the flag. Or games like TFC where your natural class attributes have equal weaknesses as to how others can off you being the flag carrier. The TL has the unreal personality, and isn't going anywhere, considering this won't go class based, and I never really like the grappling hook thing, or the idea of moving slower with a flag on your back. That though, was indeed the intent of the TL, not reaching things you couldn't without it.

The flag used to be more effected by physics, but was fixed due to exploitation (see redeemer jumps).

As much as I'd like to say I do whole heartedly agree with Discords post, becasue those are indeed excellent ideas for pub play, I don't think that I would fully enjoy that much "auto-mation," especially in more competative play.

What I really liked, in a game of that nature, was the voice menu system in Tribes. We used to have full conversations with that system, because it was brilliantly set up, relatively easy to learn, and the default control set left your hands in home position, so you could use it well, without dropping your mouse, or losing your hands place on the keyboard. I use ESDF to this day still becasue of that game, and really wish epic would drop the current number system in their voice menu. Associating letters to categories of speech, and below that, letters to each speach by letters used in the names of all this, could make it easy to learn, and useful. Only possible issues would be it's a little bit more damaging to take your hand off walk forward sometimes, because of the way Unreal flows, you don't have "flight time" like in Tribes to do that stuff, but I did a lot of it walking as well, so... Other problem is not everyone can touch type, but then they tried to fix that, and it kinda went down hill...

For pub play though, those suggestions are brilliant, and maybe my only real problem with automation is lack of the ability to show said communication skills, or of course, more so, the natural lack of versitility that any automation creates. There are always serverside options for that though...
 

Selerox

COR AD COR LOQVITVR
Nov 12, 1999
6,584
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TheUKofGBandNI
selerox.deviantart.com
I feel the need, ther need for no lame tactics.

Discord said:
IMO one of the easiest ways Epic could make that happen would be an offshoot of the useless and irritating autotaunt feature: auto communicate. Some possibilities for that:

  • - Flag carrier hasn't aimed at a friendly in 10 seconds or so. He/ she automatically broadcasts "I need backup!"

    - Player aims at the EFC. Player automatically broadcasts, "Enemy flag carrier is here!" Time delay of 5 sec or so between broadcasts to keep the spam down.

    - Flag carrier's health is below 40, broadcasts "Medic!"

    - Player enters enemy base, broadcasts "I'm goin' in!"

    - Player aims at friendly flag carrier, broadcasts "I got your back."

    - Player stay within x radius of his flag for, say, 20 sec; broadcasts "I'm on defense!"

    - Player travels beyond that radius, broadcasts "I'm on offense!"

Etc. etc. Location strings in the map will tell teammates where this stuff is happening.

Naturally, this would be a clientside option, set to "on" by default. Naturally, a more user friendly setup for manual speech broadcast wouldn't hurt.

100% Agreed.

One thing is that I'd drop the "Medic" line for something new, "Medic" could be said by anyone, so it'd be better to have something specific. I'd also suggest adding another autocom feature:

- Player is within x radius of enemy flag for 10-20 seconds, broadcasts "Waiting to attack!" etc.

One more thing that might be an idea for solving the flag carrier movement issue. Rather than having a movement aid for the defending team and backups, simply drop the flag carrier speed to 75%. It's quick enough to make the FC easy to escape with backup, while still allowing defenders to catch up. It forces teams to attack in force or their FC will end up being swamped.

The only problem is that it wouldn't work due to hammer dodging, which is lame enough when the defenders have xlocs, let alone without. I'd love Epic to remove hammer dodging completely really, it's a very weak tactic and totally goes against what the game should be IMO. If Epic found a way to hamstring hammer dodging, then having a slowed FC may well work.
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
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While I do like the messages listed, I disagree with the automated aspect. They'd need plenty of fuzzy-logic & delay-loops to solve endless repeating of those messages.

I'd rather have the voice-menu switch useful commands to an easy to reach position.
ie :
as a flagrunner you'd have easy access to 'need backup', 'take my flag' etc.
as a defender you'd probably would want to say 'enemy flagcarrier' as fast as possible without having to search through dozens of layers.

Perhaps one could even implement a scheme that would allow players to define their own favourite voice-commands without having to sacrifice keys. Kind of like having a separate set of controls for vehicle vs normal movement you could add separate voicemenu's for FC's, attack & defense.

// re : Voices & VoiceIP features
I'd really would like it if voice could be switched to a secondary soundcard or a usb-headset.
That way they wouldn't have to mute all sounds just to let the communitications be heard.
The only problem is that Windows only supports one soundcard for output.
I'm not sure how the voice-com works for the Xbox Live!-system, but I'm sure it's similar in nature.
 

edhe

..dadhe..
Jun 12, 2000
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www.clanci.net
:tup: to discord's post. There needs to be alot more 'teamwork' and 'communication' goin on in pubs, and in general. It's become far too much of a refined gametype to just lock and load. In fact it could be a seriously f'in awesome addition if allied with a better location thing.

IMHO an addition/change to the 'location' string should be a 'distance' string, from the enemy flag/you/home flag. It could be quite a complex thing to read, but would be handy. So you could have 'ready to attack - near enemy flag' 'got your back - Right above you' 'Got our flag - mid-map-high' 'EFC Spotted - near base flag right into mid' - a rusty idea, but could be useful somehow? Bots do this kind of thing anyway, shouldn't have to rely on the binds/voice comm chattering (that people turn off due to annoying Dird-types) to have this online - should be auto.

What i'd like to see, other than that, is a faster xloc - if speed's moved up from now and the speed of the toss isn't then it'll be faster to dodge.... :con:, no Adren, something more interesting to pickup - UT had Boots that were great.

Another thing, thought about this, but 'flag tossing' ?
With physics applied (and pickup & holding animations etc etc) you could hit a bind that would throw the flag - or have a 'weapon' that stops you from using your own weapon but does allow you to throw the flag to a team mate. Not far, obviously. And not enough to throw it into a whole and xloc up into it to hide. More of a 'baton toss' that currently has to be done with xloc drops.

Yeah, being able to toss the flag to a team mate whilst running beside them without having to do the xloc dance (which leaves you vulnerable to surprise attack - might be good, but it's always a farce) at a decent distance (less than combo distance) could really help the flow.

Plus, would make for one of the movie-style moments when the flag's in midair and people are jostling to get under it (and xloccing through to it) to get the steal... :B

Heh, plus you could get to the flag before people cap, nick it and toss it out the window or something. Pretty standard CTF behaviour anyway to delay caps. Would have to avoid the ability to 'boost' it though, flag + combo + physics would be exploitable.
 
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8-4-7-2

New Member
Mar 6, 2000
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Oh yeah, flagtossing would be fantastic

Now xloc dropping is a bit problematic unless your teammates know that you want to pass it. And even then the possible positions of the players are limited
When you run behind someone you can't pass the flag to him without communication

You could also throw it down buildings, chasms, cliffs, etc.
 
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Swerto

The Founder Of The PL4Y4 H474Z
Jul 29, 2005
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CTF IS FINE LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!! except flag tossing... maybe u cant use certain adreniline combo's with the flag... like speed... O YEAH make it so the translocator was like it was before!!!!!

Discord said:
This is going a little OT, I guess, but yeah the ease of use of the BF2 comms system totally blew me away. It wouldn't be a lot of use for UT simply because UT doesn't use a team radar, which is how BF2 gets away with that kind of ease of use.

At any rate, I've done the "realism" game schtick for a while now and just over a couple days of playing BF2 on ranked servers I've seen the best public teamwork I've ever seen... simply because the game makes it easy to do.

IMO one of the easiest ways Epic could make that happen would be an offshoot of the useless and irritating autotaunt feature: auto communicate. Some possibilities for that:

  • - Flag carrier hasn't aimed at a friendly in 10 seconds or so. He/ she automatically broadcasts "I need backup!"

    - Player aims at the EFC. Player automatically broadcasts, "Enemy flag carrier is here!" Time delay of 5 sec or so between broadcasts to keep the spam down.

    - Flag carrier's health is below 40, broadcasts "Medic!"

    - Player enters enemy base, broadcasts "I'm goin' in!"

    - Player aims at friendly flag carrier, broadcasts "I got your back."

    - Player stay within x radius of his flag for, say, 20 sec; broadcasts "I'm on defense!"

    - Player travels beyond that radius, broadcasts "I'm on offense!"

Etc. etc. Location strings in the map will tell teammates where this stuff is happening.

Naturally, this would be a clientside option, set to "on" by default. Naturally, a more user friendly setup for manual speech broadcast wouldn't hurt.


TBPH though, I think teamwork in CTF pubs is by and large sufficient to the task... most people will cover the FC if they know where to find him, etc etc. Part of the beauty of CTF is that it's not a terribly complicated game.

I also agree... cool auto broadcasts would rock
 
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Swerto

The Founder Of The PL4Y4 H474Z
Jul 29, 2005
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Adreniline works just certain combos shouldnt b aloud at times...
 

JaFO

bugs are features too ...
Nov 5, 2000
8,408
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Bah ... if you want 'classic' CTF then you should continue playing the UT'99 / UT2kx / Quake - variant instead of the UT2k7-variant ... :p

Gametypes should be allowed to evolve. If they don't then they might as well be removed completely.