CTF - Does it need improvement?

[Wowbagger]

I just posted in the UT2007 wish list thread over at INA and started thinking about CTF which is my main UT gametype since the beginning.

Lately (UT2003/2004) ive felt that it feels a bit "old".
To name one minor "issue", when you pick up the flag or drop it etc it just appears there.
Theres no "animation connection" between the player and the flag so to speak.
Also the Flag (and the weapons too for that matter) has no "physics".
Theres no sound when you drop the flag/weapon and they just "hang" there for no apparent reason.

Its hard to explain but it feels like noones bothered to update the gametype even when its possible with new engine improvements.

I know many players hates changes to something that "works" and all that and i suspect theres gonna be alot of 1337 comments from players that plays in wiremode etc but i would like CTF to be a bit more updated and cooler (technically too).

Any suggestions?

 

[Wowbagger]

One thing i think all of us has experienced sometime is that when a game starts "wrong" it can be 0-1 maybe even 0-2 or 0-3 before the team has reacted.
On a bigger scale if the teams are unbalanced there can be 2-3 games of raping before anything happens (usually because half of the raped teams players disconnect)

I think all this can be blamed on the lack of available time for communication.
Compared to RL sports theres no natural break to to let us communicate.



In Hockey or Football, if you score, the scoring team congrats the scorer etc meantime the other team can talk and make some minor changes before the game starts again.

Also they can talk a bit longer and make some more detailed changes of their tactics when they switch sides usually 15 minutes or something.

Im really happy to see that Epic has improved this in UT2007 by letting us chat between the maps making it possible to maybe switch some players before the next map loads. (this can easily be compared to the RL sports switching sides when they have 15 minutes of rest)



We could use some, very short, "natural" break after a team scores tho.
How this should be done is tricky but heres ONE idea of some sorts,

I think i touched this a little in Bullet10k:s Flag thread.

How about if a Cap triggers an artifical shockwave with its center at the flag.(it should be felt and heard all over the map but fainter the further away you are from the Cap)
It would throw the opponents from the flag, clearing the area and at the same time lock the Capper in a victory pose showing who capped and who helpt him.
Were talking 5 seconds maybe 10 here im not sure.

The shockwave helps making a "natural" break by preventing that someone grabs the flag immidietly after the other team scored plus that it reinforces the fact that there was a Cap (in a cool???) way.
For the effect of the shockwave think the "death" of Sauron in the first Lord of the rings movie (Fotr) UT style.


Edit: geez it looks a bit chaotic, ill try and make it a bit more structured

 

[Selerox]

NO. ROUNDS. EVER.

Any pauses in gameplay would be awful. CTF/TDM is about non-stop action, not being round-based (which is effectivily what CTF would become with pauses).

The fact that a team can grab an opponents flag right after they cap is a good thing. It allows a team that's behind to counter-attack right away, and it'd only happen if the capping team gets sloppy. Having pauses after a cap would create a balance problem by given the capping team an advantage to regroup and prevent the other team counter-attacking right away.

If CTF went round-based or included pauses post-cap I wouldn't even consider playing it when UT2007 arrives. I'm all for things that bring an updated feel to the gametype, but it has to keep the constant action feel to the game. One thing that does need changing is the scoring system IMO, it's a little too stagnant right now.

 

[Renegade Retard]

What Sel said.

You can tweek the looks, physics, sound, scoring, etc., but DON'T touch the gameplay!

I seriously doubt that Epic would change gameplay at all (rounds? breaks? give me a break!). They know that if they did, they would alienate perhaps the games most loyal fans. Not good for business.

 

[Wowbagger]

Ok so no pause then
So what would you like to see?
Is CTF99 with prettier gfx sufficient?
Can CTF survive all the vehicle gametypes if its just "copied over to the next" engine so to speak?

 

[SiN-BiN]

Ok so no pause then
So what would you like to see?
Is CTF99 with prettier gfx sufficient?
Can CTF survive all the vehicle gametypes if its just "copied over to the next" engine so to speak?

Just look at UT2004.

 

[Discord]

Ok so no pause then
So what would you like to see?
Is CTF99 with prettier gfx sufficient?
Can CTF survive all the vehicle gametypes if its just "copied over to the next" engine so to speak?

Sure it can. Having dug up the stats lately, CTF's online numbers are easily competitive with ONS. They don't win, of course, but they don't get crushed either.

Here's what REALLY needs improving with CTF:

• -Translocator. Is fine. IMO, anyway. I think they've got it just right for UT2004, and TBH I always did and still do hate the UT99 xloc... small tweaks to fit the 2k7 movement changes should suffice. I know there are truckloads of people who don't feel the same way though, so we'll call this "hot button issue #1." Gentlemen, start your flamethrowers.
  
  - Maps. Here's one we can mostly agree on, I think. The official maps for CTF were 90 - 99% junk in UT2k3... mostly the problem was they were too big and in some cases not nearly open enough (Chrome and that egyptian one everybody's tried so hard to forget). 2k4's maps were a little better IMO... Grassy was OK, and I actually enjoyed Colossus and AbsoluteZero although they were both kind of quirky and neither one really hit the mainstream, fundamental gameplay elements you'd like to see in a CTF map. Don't get me started on Bridge.
  
  -Adrenaline. CTF got heavily affected by adrenaline. I'm fine with the balance in 2k4, others say it's still too much.

And that, basically, is that. Those are the three central issues in CTF... otherwise, it's just a symmetrical map with a couple of flags in it, it's pretty difficult to screw up from a system point of view.

Graphical tweaks? Well, if you like... just as long as they don't get in the way of the game.

 

[Wowbagger]

Yea i never understood peoples complaints about the TL.
Its a good compromise the way it is in UT2004.

 

[Bullet10k]

Yea i never understood peoples complaints about the TL.
Its a good compromise the way it is in UT2004.

Leave TL OFF by DEFAULT. It ruins the game IMO, like instead of shooting at the player, you'd be shooting at where the player just threw the translocator. It's way too overused is my main concern, ppl use it as a replacement to running (it wasnt meant for it either, it was only meant to get into hard to reach places). I know the trans is used to get in hard to reach places (however IMO I would rather trick jump to get there like the way it was meant to be done IMO), but it's now being overused as a "traveler" in addition to getting into hard to reach places.

I think what would help is if the TL had like a really really long reload time, so basically, you only use it to get to your hard to reach places, rather than use it as a running replacement. If that happened, then MAYBE put TL on by default, otherwise, it should still have a long reload time.

If something is in the game, ppl will take full advantage of it, so you can't blame the players for using it as a running replacement, because THEY CAN.

If you want something to get you to the flag fast...They're putting vehicles in UT2007 CTF, so you can use your manta.

 

[8-4-7-2]

You can't teletrain like in UT anymore. It runs out of ammo way too fast for that

CTF needs the translocator. Otherwise when the enemy flagcarrier is halfway across the map and your whole team is killed you have no chance of getting the flag back.
With the translocator it's possible to catch up and the enemy has to fight harder to cap

The shieldgun messes with gameplay far more, because it's much easier to run away. But they already want to fix that


Graphically I'd like some real flag holding animations instead of just strapping it to the back. But that's a problem with two-handed weapons I guess

 

[1337]

I'd like to see CTF more packed-in. I'd like to see more advanced projectile weapons that give benefit to a packed-in group of players. I'd like to see more curved hallways, and less wide open ctf maps. More surging and less benefit to the yeilding. Less acute corners to hide around.

The bad thing about projectiles in ut2004 is that the only time you can effectively use projectiles is when the other person isn't aware of you, or the other person has already commited to a movement, such as a dodge-double jump.

In a projectile battle, the player that stands still has the advantage over the player that is aggressively surging in the direction of the player standing still. It would be nice, if the game developers made it so the player standing still would be more vunerable to projectiles than he/she is in ut2004. Q3's momentum based movement system worked relatively well in that aspect. The player standing had a harder time accelerating away from the path of projectiles, just as the player moving had a hard time de/accelerating away from the projectiles.

Hitscan rocks in ut2004 and if it is being minimized in the next ut, they need to fix projectiles.

I'd like to see more team boosting. Right now, you need team damage enabled to be able to team weapon boost. There should be more things that bring a team together, instead of just spreading out and controlling the map. I'd like to see more mobs and swarms of people. The increased run and nerfed dodging might help things feel more packed-in too. If a player is travelling alone, he/she should feel scared and anxious.

They better not remove the dropflag bindable command.

*edit* The good thing about TL is it keeps the battle focused around the flag. It also makes it harder for people to control the map. When a player grabs the flag, he and his team are going to be fighting off opponents for as long as he and his team have possession of the flag. This does not ruin gameplay at all. If the other team is decently coordinated and you grab the flag, you and others will have to tear through 1000+ hitpoints of opposing players if you want to cap. CTF isn't about one person dominating, it's about using teamwork and dropping the flag when you're low health so a teammate with hitpoints can grab it. TL helps the battle feel more packed-in.

 

[JaFO]

The flag should definitely become an object that can be affected by weapons. Kind of like the ball in BR.


// pauses for tactics ...
It won't work for the simple reason that no one is interested in any tactics or teamwork to begin with.

I think the best way to get teamwork is to think of some kind of benifit for groups of people. Sure ... in theory the linkgun is that thing, but it is impossible to indicate that you want to be linked etc.

In essence you'd need a better com-system that can handle the tasks in the various gametypes. At the moment all we've got is "get/defend the flag".
And while there are commands to indicate 'incoming enemy' it's hidden in the voicemenu. I think BF2 solved this one by having a context-sensitive voicemenu and the squad-element. CTF (and all other gametypes) need something similar or else public servers will become even worse ...

// ---
I'm still convinced that getting rid of pickups for weapons & ammo (perhaps replacing them with the weaponlockers in ONS) would shorten the time players require to get back into the game. I think one of the reasons ONS is popular with the new players is that they can play without having to hunt for basic resources every time they get fragged. This 'feature' would make large maps a little more fun to play as well.

You'd still would have powerups like DamageAmp and perhaps even Relics (or something similar) to defend. The less distraction from the actual task (capping & defending flags) the better.

 

[1337]

If there are lockers with multiple weapons, players should still be required to make decisions on which route they should take and there should be certain benefits of going through different routes, inorder to promote flow through the map. ONS has nodes, vehicle spawns, and weapon lockers that cause flow.

 

[Discord]

I think BF2 solved this one by having a context-sensitive voicemenu and the squad-element. CTF (and all other gametypes) need something similar or else public servers will become even worse ...

This is going a little OT, I guess, but yeah the ease of use of the BF2 comms system totally blew me away. It wouldn't be a lot of use for UT simply because UT doesn't use a team radar, which is how BF2 gets away with that kind of ease of use.

At any rate, I've done the "realism" game schtick for a while now and just over a couple days of playing BF2 on ranked servers I've seen the best public teamwork I've ever seen... simply because the game makes it easy to do.

IMO one of the easiest ways Epic could make that happen would be an offshoot of the useless and irritating autotaunt feature: auto communicate. Some possibilities for that:

• - Flag carrier hasn't aimed at a friendly in 10 seconds or so. He/ she automatically broadcasts "I need backup!"
  
  - Player aims at the EFC. Player automatically broadcasts, "Enemy flag carrier is here!" Time delay of 5 sec or so between broadcasts to keep the spam down.
  
  - Flag carrier's health is below 40, broadcasts "Medic!"
  
  - Player enters enemy base, broadcasts "I'm goin' in!"
  
  - Player aims at friendly flag carrier, broadcasts "I got your back."
  
  - Player stay within x radius of his flag for, say, 20 sec; broadcasts "I'm on defense!"
  
  - Player travels beyond that radius, broadcasts "I'm on offense!"

Etc. etc. Location strings in the map will tell teammates where this stuff is happening.

Naturally, this would be a clientside option, set to "on" by default. Naturally, a more user friendly setup for manual speech broadcast wouldn't hurt.


TBPH though, I think teamwork in CTF pubs is by and large sufficient to the task... most people will cover the FC if they know where to find him, etc etc. Part of the beauty of CTF is that it's not a terribly complicated game.

 

[hal]

This is going a little OT, I guess, but yeah the ease of use of the BF2 comms system totally blew me away. It wouldn't be a lot of use for UT simply because UT doesn't use a team radar, which is how BF2 gets away with that kind of ease of use.

At any rate, I've done the "realism" game schtick for a while now and just over a couple days of playing BF2 on ranked servers I've seen the best public teamwork I've ever seen... simply because the game makes it easy to do.

IMO one of the easiest ways Epic could make that happen would be an offshoot of the useless and irritating autotaunt feature: auto communicate. Some possibilities for that:

• - Flag carrier hasn't aimed at a friendly in 10 seconds or so. He/ she automatically broadcasts "I need backup!"
  
  - Player aims at the EFC. Player automatically broadcasts, "Enemy flag carrier is here!" Time delay of 5 sec or so between broadcasts to keep the spam down.
  
  - Flag carrier's health is below 40, broadcasts "Medic!"
  
  - Player enters enemy base, broadcasts "I'm goin' in!"
  
  - Player aims at friendly flag carrier, broadcasts "I got your back."
  
  - Player stay within x radius of his flag for, say, 20 sec; broadcasts "I'm on defense!"
  
  - Player travels beyond that radius, broadcasts "I'm on offense!"

Etc. etc. Location strings in the map will tell teammates where this stuff is happening.

Naturally, this would be a clientside option, set to "on" by default. Naturally, a more user friendly setup for manual speech broadcast wouldn't hurt.


TBPH though, I think teamwork in CTF pubs is by and large sufficient to the task... most people will cover the FC if they know where to find him, etc etc. Part of the beauty of CTF is that it's not a terribly complicated game.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Listen up Epic!

 

[Bullet10k]

This is going a little OT, I guess, but yeah the ease of use of the BF2 comms system totally blew me away. It wouldn't be a lot of use for UT simply because UT doesn't use a team radar, which is how BF2 gets away with that kind of ease of use.

At any rate, I've done the "realism" game schtick for a while now and just over a couple days of playing BF2 on ranked servers I've seen the best public teamwork I've ever seen... simply because the game makes it easy to do.

IMO one of the easiest ways Epic could make that happen would be an offshoot of the useless and irritating autotaunt feature: auto communicate. Some possibilities for that:

• - Flag carrier hasn't aimed at a friendly in 10 seconds or so. He/ she automatically broadcasts "I need backup!"
  
  - Player aims at the EFC. Player automatically broadcasts, "Enemy flag carrier is here!" Time delay of 5 sec or so between broadcasts to keep the spam down.
  
  - Flag carrier's health is below 40, broadcasts "Medic!"
  
  - Player enters enemy base, broadcasts "I'm goin' in!"
  
  - Player aims at friendly flag carrier, broadcasts "I got your back."
  
  - Player stay within x radius of his flag for, say, 20 sec; broadcasts "I'm on defense!"
  
  - Player travels beyond that radius, broadcasts "I'm on offense!"

Etc. etc. Location strings in the map will tell teammates where this stuff is happening.

Naturally, this would be a clientside option, set to "on" by default. Naturally, a more user friendly setup for manual speech broadcast wouldn't hurt.


TBPH though, I think teamwork in CTF pubs is by and large sufficient to the task... most people will cover the FC if they know where to find him, etc etc. Part of the beauty of CTF is that it's not a terribly complicated game.

I really hope Epic read this post. Thats some good ideas.

 

[T2A`]

Discord... You get the "Post of the Year in the UT2007 Forum" award as far as I'm concerned. That's just brilliant.

Playing FragBU where communication is at a minimum (it's like a pub, but with a passworded server), I'll be damned if I ever say "I'm on offense" or "I've got your back" simply because I don't have time to scroll through the speech menu to find them or enough keys within easy reach to bother with binding them. The only thing I have bound says "I need backup!" and lists my health, ammo, and location for those times when I'm flag running. Since there's no real communication going on in pubs and FragBU, if I don't know where our flag carrier is, that's unlikely to change unless I just randomly stumble upon him. This auto-communication would be great for pubs where it's highly unlikely that Teamspeak or Ventrilo will be used. Awesome idea, man! :tup:

 

[RyGaR]

These are really good suggestions, however seeing as how it's unlikely that epic will read this here, i would suggest posting this at the official epic forums

http://forums.epicgames.com

 

[Wowbagger]

This is the biggest Unreal Fansite so im sure they read this

Very good ideas and i agree on the success of the BF2 teamplay (been playing it since day one)

As someone mentioned CTF is a much simpler gametype and needs less to actually work teamplay wise.

One thing ive noticed (and im sure you all have too) on pubs is that thanks too the lack of communication people "chase the ball" too much.
Its often too many on defense or (more often) ALL on attack.
If someone actually takes the time to type "We need someone on defense!" it often results in too MANY abandoning their attack role.
Theres almost never a balance like in a Clan game.

VOICECOM
One solution is to have a fully working VoiceCom.

Epic was so close to pull it off in UT2004 but failed in some minor aspects.
One of them was the lack of Voice Activation.
In order to make people use it it needs to be as good as people are used to in their external VoiceComs.
Many use Voice Activation and simply dont have keys left (at a easy to reach place) to bind PTT or have used (like me) VoiceActivation for too many years.
A automatic, fully working, VoiceCom will do wonders for the teamplay.

ROLES
Also i cant give up my idea of picking roles before the CTF game starts.
The game should give you the option to play like Attacker, Free role or Defender.
Also a tiny teamstatus on the hud should show how many actually is on Attack, Free Role or Defense.
Changing your role should be only a toggle key away.

This could fix two things,
1. No more "ops we have played without any defenders for 5 minutes"
2. No more simultaneous switches between roles of several players making the team unbalanced.

For those that cant be bothered there should be a checkbox like "I choose Free Role dont ever bother me again".

 

[Wowbagger]

And Bullet10k i couldnt disagree more with you about the TL even if i tried, HARD

The TL is a key element to UT CTF and nerfing it more would be a disaster.
I think Epic found a perfect balance for the TL in UT2004.
Its still useful but not as insanely spammy as in UT99. (i can still remember the FPS drop and the fuzzy images when some TL whore was on a spamming spree )