CS gas?

[5eleven]

Hehe, 54B...............I suppose you put mustard on CS and eat it for lunch? j/k man. Excellent.

No, I'm not, but I just watched "Rules of Engagement" againt the other day, and although I wasn't paying the most attention to it, I was pretty certain that the FBI said that they used CS gas, which they pumped into the compound using those pump spray systems that they retrofitted onto the M1A1 tanks.

In addition to that, the FBI is now reversing a previous claim and admitting that they may have fired pyrotechnic CS cannisters into the compound after the rest of the CS was pumped in. Supposedly, they were firing M651's, a 40mm CS round, which I'm sure you are familiar with, into the compound. (Those cannisters were found after the fire)

I don't have figures readily available, but after my own curiosity reading your post, I did a quick search, and found this Adobe Acrobat document: "Possible Lethal Effects of CS Tear Gas on Branch Davidians During the FBI Raid on the Mt Carmel Compound Near Waco, Texas April 19, 1993 . Check that out, pretty interesting reading.

 

[Majestic12]

CS gas is not lethal itself, but if it reaches high enough concentrations it can cause esphyxiation (sp?). CS shouldn't be illegal to use on the battlefield because it is classified as a riot control agent.

The gas the Russians used was some form of poppy extract in aerosol form, they pumped too much of it into the theatre and people either sufficated or OD'ed.

I'll see if I can't drag something up on this new riot control agent, I think I've read something about it before. If I remember correctly, it's much stronger than CS and because of that the projected deaths from exposure is a bit higher.

 

[geogob]

I'm close to a total ignorant on that subject, but I remember reading that there are 3 "levels" of tear cas, where the first to are used by police forces. The third is only allowed of military use in Canada. Can someone confirm if this is partly right or totally worng?

 

[Tiffy]

CS gas is not lethal itself, but if it reaches high enough concentrations it can cause esphyxiation (sp?). CS shouldn't be illegal to use on the battlefield because it is classified as a riot control agent.

The Russians used to class Smoke rounds as chemical agents.....CS gas is definatly a chemical agent and as such is technically illegal on the battlefield.

Also about 1-100 people are totally immune tothe effects of CS and aout 1-1000 have extream reactions to it that can result in death if not treated. So CS can be a leathal agent regardless of concentration.

 

[sir_edmond]

i said it was illegal 12 posts up

 

[Majestic12]

The Russians used to class Smoke rounds as chemical agents.....CS gas is definatly a chemical agent and as such is technically illegal on the battlefield.

Also about 1-100 people are totally immune tothe effects of CS and aout 1-1000 have extream reactions to it that can result in death if not treated. So CS can be a leathal agent regardless of concentration.

I didn't say it wasn't, I said it shouldn't. I find the fact that police orginizations are allowed to use CS on civilians who have no real protection against it while soldiers can't use against each other when they're issued MOPP gear just a tad contradictary.

 

[N'kEnNy]

The russian special forces' rescue attempt in the opera in russia (i think last year?) used some sort of gas to gas-out the Cechen terrorist that took over an opera. Except hostages died due to the gas as well, many suffering injuries, with an overall failure in the mission with around 200 dead... but of course, im sure you could find that out in some news archives on it

If I'm not awfully wrong, considering the amount of hostages involved the death figure wasn't high enough to consider it a "failiure". This is of course an extremely ruthless and perhaps cynical point of view, not to mention unfair to the victims. But the point still stands, in theory the Russian solution to the siege was a success.

I must admit its been some time since I looked at an article covering the situation. I'm not sure, but I think the number of accepted hostage casualties (there isn't morally or ethically such a thing of course, but in the realm of govermental and corperate interest there is). As I recall 20% was the stated figure. The death toll in the Russian Siege was below this. Thus their tactic was a success.

On the other hand the article I read was from www.moscowtimes.ru which may have been "coloured" by personal oppinion (or worse)

This is of course not a personal attack kind, just a friendly reminder. And finally excuse the poorly constructed post, of a matter I can hardly recall at the moment. Its 08:45 AM and my brain ought to have been set to sleep mode a long time ago.

In an effort to hunt down the article I originally read to get the numbers correct I came accross something rather interesting.

Poll: Most Russians Approve of How Siege Was Handled
23 October, 2003
The Associated Press
More than 60 percent of Russians approved of the government's handling of last year's Chechen rebel raid on the Dubrovka theater, according to a poll released Wednesday.
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/10/23/016.html

Note: I'm not here to discuss neither politics, media "control", nor the fabulus ability of some spin-doctors. I'm only presenting the numbers here to give you something to think about.

130 out of the 800 people inside died, "most of them from the debilitating gas used by commandos during the daring, but deadly raid that also killed at least 41 guerrillas."

Again, this isn't to stirr up trouble in any way. But I feel its important to realise how hard a hostage situation is to resolve peacefully. And we cannot be the judge of how the Russian "experts" chose to handle the situation. Simply because we were not there to see the situation evolve. At least I cannot claim to be there.


Now where is the link to Infiltration? Good quesiton, this is the ramblings of a very tired mind that got stuck on one trail and failed to get off at the end-station. Don't let this post hijack the thread.

 

[Tiffy]

Most people died in the Russian siege due to inadequate first aid AFTER they had been released. People where left unattended and in inapproperiate possitions, dieing from resparatory failure. The military also didn't reveal the agent used so hospital staff didn't know what they were dealling with.

More people should have survived the Russian seige. The failure was one of communication and basic first aid, the tactic was perfectly valid and well executed.

 

[SaraP]

People where left unattended and in inapproperiate possitions, dieing from resparatory failure.

They left the unconscious victims lying on their backs, which caused them to aspirate and choke to death on their own vomit.

 

[Tiffy]

Thats what I said.....baring the spelling mistakes that is.


I speak English, just like the Queen does.

 

[ninjin]

thats interesting, so the mission was a total success but the first aid was a total failure costing the lives of the hostages?

um...wow...

 

[MeckonOmega]

Ummm, wtf? Raven Shield has gas because there is hostage rescue in that game. In INF, you are trying to kill everyone who is not on your team, not trigger their allergies.

 

[MeckonOmega]

On second thought, I would welcome them if they had a more complete effect on their proximity than these firecracker grenades we have now..

Nades like AA in INF!! hoo hum.

 

[sir_edmond]

check out this mutie Beppo made INF_Captive mutator