classes = realism, INF =! realism

[mat69]

but your facts are just wrong, the minime and scopes are both balanced realisticly right now, what is the basis for you claiming these weapons are "weak"

Then tell me, why they aren't used in a realistic matter? Why don't you have the possibility to do it effectifly? And now tell me how to adress this problem.

Being prone and watching through a scope made me realise that there isn't that much weapon moving (weak in this context damn quibbler @ beerbaron, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon without any message) and good shooters do have a much better coordination of their breath and can hold the weapon much more still than I can do.
Or do you really think that a Sniper (with the Robar or the PSG 1) bounces that much, especially if he is using a bipod [damn too tired for anything] "Zweibein" (forgot the name in English atm, the thing under the barrell to balance the rifle, FA MAS do has them as well)?

It's really expensive, that's another argument why there should BE classes.

And suppressive fire is really something that does work by using the Minimi.
Not really in INF and that's one of the points, the Minimi is a mitigated weapon. One of its maintargets IS to use suppressive fire while AR main target is more the precise shot or small bursts.

The part where sniper weapons shine is if you are a long way off, conceled and prone.
IMHO for this the weapon boggle is too high.

MGs also have disadvantages in that if you try to use one in the same manner you would a light assault rifle
That's what I'm talking about. Can you use the MG in its role in INF?
I don't think so that's why this weapon would have to be 'stronger' in some way (hey these are just thoughts not recipes!) to fit to their role.

in real life scopes just make it easier to see the target
That's not completly true, they also make aiming easier but not just because you see your target better but because you don't have two points you have to aim through (open sights), you still can cant but imho it is harder as with open sights.

I hope I didn't forget anything, I'm just sooo tired.

 

[Taque]

I dunno, I've used suppressive fire even with AR's when I've been caught in a compromised position. When playing an objective based game, I've never seen a sane enemy who will willingly engage in a showdown with a well positioned MG. Hell, they often just clear out and move for a different route, which is its desired effect. As for the scopes, I don't see a problem with the weapon bob - controlling the breath is simply required and I haven't had a problem killing people effectively yet (did you mean a bipod?).

Oh, and for the record, I usually NEVER prone when sniping.

 

[Lt.]

I will prone sometimes when firing the minimi from the EAS-Gatehouse roof or similar, same for ACOG'ed weapons. although often is easier to take a quick kneel, hold breath, and fire off the shot.

and yeah, for Zweibein i would also guess bipod.

 

[yurch]

in real life scopes just make it easier to see the target
That's not completly true, they also make aiming easier but not just because you see your target better but because you don't have two points you have to aim through (open sights), you still can cant but imho it is harder as with open sights.

The act of aiming has far more to it than just lining up one or two points - there's posture/stance, timing and control to worry about. The actual act of lining the sights up plays only a smaller part...

 

[Vega-don]

ive been hard with inf.
after playing it yesterday
the most part of the superiority of the assault rifles come from the lack of real team tactics on the pubs, so you cant realy specialise in a role, it is better to be polyvalent.

 

[mat69]

The act of aiming has far more to it than just lining up one or two points - there's posture/stance, timing and control to worry about. The actual act of lining the sights up plays only a smaller part...
Yes this is true but not considered in INF, in INF you generally aim too fast in rl it takes longer in most cases.
The posture/stance, timing and control are nearly the same for scopes and open sights. If the enemy is too close none looks through the scope or through the open sights, you look over the rifle.
I know that scopes aren't good in CQB, but they are ideal for distances like 200 or 300 m. I hardly hit anything in INF up to this distance with scoped weapons even closer distances make it hard to aim even if you are prone. Why do you HAVE to use "breathe" to be able to hit good with scoped weapons? In prone it is much easier to hit in rl compared to INF. The fact that you aim with both eyes opened is also not touched in INF, I know this wouldn't be easy but I think it would be possible.
I have the feeling that open sight weapons do have nearly all of their advantages they have in rl while they don't have most of the disadvantages the oposite goes imo for scoped weapons.

 

[Beppo]

What kind of disadvantages should the open sight weapons have in your opinion?
Without controlling your breathing you can fire your scoped weapons pretty accurately too. You 'just' need a full stamina bar and going into the crouch/kneel position helps too.
Well if you carry your .50 and a SMG as sidearm with a bunch of mags, a vest and maybe even some grenades, then your stamina will be waaaay too low.

The problem with scopes in computer games is that they are zoomed crosshairs normally. Nothing much you can do against this. You can give it a wobbling effect or a bob with the scope cant/tilt a bit. Sure our current system isn't perfect but it gives you enough to need some skill and training to be mastered. And that's what it should do actually. The scopes should not become easy to use crosshairs. And in RL a scoped weapon isn't that easy to handle too. If you ever had a hunting rifle, small caliber rifle or an airgun in your hands, that had a scope mounted on top of it, then you should be able to tell that a scope is by far not as easy to use as a crosshair and that it needs some training and skill to be used effectively.

And to bring up the 'both eyes opened' and 'shouldered position' arguments is just getting a bit OT now. You know that these things were and still are discussed on these boards and that this has not much to do with the scope handling itself. A shouldered position doesn't use the scope and the both eyes opened shooting is something that needs a lot of training in RL and would need a whole new concept for displaying this stuff 'correctly' in a game.

 

[mat69]

What kind of disadvantages should the open sight weapons have in your opinion?
You see less of your target, canting is imo easier. Aiming over great distances isn't that easy.
Without controlling your breathing you can fire your scoped weapons pretty accurately too. You 'just' need a full stamina bar and going into the crouch/kneel position helps too.
The weapon still moves too much and btw. even after a sprint, a long march, less sleep ... hitting shouldn't be that hard.
If you ever had a hunting rifle, small caliber rifle or an airgun in your hands, that had a scope mounted on top of it, then you should be able to tell that a scope is by far not as easy to use as a crosshair and that it needs some training and skill to be used effectively.
I think it's pretty easy, I was suprised by the way how easy it is.
And to bring up the 'both eyes opened' and 'shouldered position' arguments is just getting a bit OT now ... [they are in discussion and they have less to do with scope handling itself]
I didn't ask for it, I just said that scoped weapons can used pretty good in CQB. But you see it's another "positive" and very important feature of scoped (as well as open sight weapons) weapons that isn't existing in INF. Those missing features make INF pretty scope-unfriendly and I think that there should be a way to reduce this effect through making other things 'stronger'.

Why should be both eyes opened shooting so hard? I can understand (not sure though because I never looked through a 4x scope but through a 1.5x scope and hitting targets at 300 with the last one isn't easier than with the first one right?) if you have a high magnification that it is not that easy, but is it still that hard with a 4x scope?

We're talking about a grame and in games you can't realise everything so you have to make compromises. In rl you allways try to shoot disposed while you don't have this option in INF. I know it would be hard to realise but you could e.g. make aiming prone easier because in rl you often will have something to shoot disposed.
That's what I'm asking for, make