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"Check Mag" Function

Discussion in 'New Version Suggestions' started by Buddz, Jan 4, 2004.

  1. =CreepingShadow=

    =CreepingShadow= New Member

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    Exactly. :D
     
  2. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I looked for the original thread on this subject but I couldn't find it. I guess it was lost in the great caticlism.

    I like the way Red Orchestra does things and it was similar to the idea I had. the messages I think should be: Magazine Full (A soldier could very easily tell this by pressing down on the firstround with his thumb), Magazine Nearly Full (the top round depresses somewhat but the mag is heavy), Magazine is more than Half Full, Magazine is less than Half Full, Magazine Nearly Empty (the mag has some rounds in it but is light and top heavy if shaken). I don't think an empty message is nessasary as the INF guy tosses empies on the ground. I also don't think that the fact that smaller magazines would give a more precise result should be a problem as it is much easier to guesstimate how many rounds are left in a smaller mag.

    For the weapons with clear mags I think it would be nice to have a graphic in the hud to indicate the number of rounds left. The graphic should only update if the weapon is hipped and not firing.
     
  3. Olethros

    Olethros Functional alcoholic

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    My two (Canadian - as the case may be here) cents

    To see how I would have done this:
    • Download the attached archive and unpack to your UnrealTournament\System folder.
    • In INF's menu, select the "INF - C7" mutator.
    • Make a loadout including a C7 with some STANAG mags and stuff but no M203 attachment.
    • In the game, press your "activate attachment" key to check remaining ammo.
    Keep in mind that this mutator is quite unfinished and probably buggy as hell. Don't expect much more from it than a quick glimpse of "how it could have been like if the O-man was on the INF team." (Apart from "still waiting for INF 2.9 RC 3321," that is.)
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    I don't see why a basic mag check has to be restricted to weapons you just picked up. I think it's a legitimate concern to know whether a magazine you just loaded is fresh or used. Yes, you can switch to the emptiest full mag by reloading when a fresh mag is in, but if you don't know if your mag is fresh then you lose track completely of whether you're loading the mag with the most or least rounds. This could all be cleared up with a relatively simple addition to the HUD which would not be unrealistic or extremely time consuming to implement.
     
  5. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    :con: It isn't that complicated. The INF soldier ALWAYS loads the mag with the most rounds. A mag check really isn't all that useful IMO.
     
  6. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    It's quite useful to know if you are using a fresh mag or not. It's very easy to loose track of how many mags you have gone through. Sometimes I forget hom many fresh mags are in a particular loadout. Now if you are forced to use a partially empty mag it's nice to know how empty it is.
     
  7. keihaswarrior

    keihaswarrior New Member

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    It might be nice to know that it is only a partial, but it doesn't really change anything. You still shoot at the target until it drops or until you have to change mags. I don't play any differently when I have a partial mag loaded versus a full one, there is still enough bullets to always kill whoever I want.
     
  8. =CreepingShadow=

    =CreepingShadow= New Member

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    This is going to sound like a 1970's feminine product ad, yet I would also like to know if the mag I just picked up is still fresh, nearly fresh, or soiled beyond belief...I have lost count of just how many times I was in need of some ammo, picked up a mag on the ground thinking it was a good one, only to be met around the next corner with 3 or 4 enemies who spread out along a wide front, all blasting away, and I have to hear that second trigger pull go *click.* "Weapons dry." :(
     
  9. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    Knowing how much ammo you have is critical to evaluating the tactical situation. I am much more likely to fall back if my ammo is low.
     
  10. Beppo

    Beppo Infiltration Lead-Programmer

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    To state this again... in your example you SEE the amount of rounds left within the magazine you just picked up displayed within the pickup message...

    In addition - as partially stated before - the INF soldier always reloads the fullest/best clip even if it was the same that he just removed out of the gun.

    And the INF soldier will always drop the emptiest/worst clip if you usethe drop/throw ammo key or the drop ammo using the equipment menu.

    So, only if you pickup a 'unknown' weapon somebody else dropped then you get no info about the ammo inside. If a mag was actually visible then you know that at least one shot is left inside - well not for pistols or the HK69/M203 obviously. In this case the new weapon is only an 'emergency' tool or just another mag added to your loadout if you carry the same weapon type. But you ran out of ammo in the first place so this 'should' not happen too often actually if you take a reasonable amount of mags with you. Always better to carry one mag more with you right from the start than to be forced to pickup the weapons and ammo of your enemies or team mates.
     
  11. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I really like the Olethros mutator. The only gripe I have is that I would like to see less precise terms like "more than half" and "less than half" instead of 2/3 and 1/3. I would also like to see warnings for nearly empty and nearly full as this would be obvious to the INF soldier (only a few shots used or left) and generally of more use. I would also like to see a hud representation for those weapons with clear mags.

    P.S. I saw the nearly full message yestarday. I don't know if there is a nearly empty message. also saw a half message.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2004
  12. Olethros

    Olethros Functional alcoholic

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    The magazine states are calculated thusly:

    30-31 rds: "Full" (Full mag + 1 in chamber = 31 rds)
    28-29 rds: "Almost full"
    19-27 rds: "2/3 full"
    12-18 rds: "Half full"
    3-11 rds: "1/3 full"
    1-2 rds: "Almost empty"
    0: rds "Empty" (If mag is empty and there are more mags available it will be replaced and the state of the newly inserted one will be reported.)

    From my personal experience these values are pretty much what an experienced shooter is able to approximate by extracting the magazine and feel the weight+looking at it+pressing down on the top round.
     
  13. =CreepingShadow=

    =CreepingShadow= New Member

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    Olethros - True that, yet the debate is still there about a soldier knowing or not knowing the approximations, or even if it could be known in a battle enviroment. IMO, A three level, color-coded clip symbol on the side of the screen could be implemented.

    |_| [green] full
    |_| [yellow] midway
    |_| [red] empty

    This 'mag symbol' would display *only* when you first pick a magazine from your pocket or pack (or off the ground), and only then. In other words, no real-time bullet counter is ever needed in INF, yet to know how much the mag you hold in your hand weighs, appears, etc., can determine if it's of any use for the situation at that moment.

    Say you find only one clip on the ground, or only have a single used mag left in your pack and there's still 3 enemies...wouldn't it be an interesting feature to see that mag is at 'green,' meaning it's full, in the case of a semi-auto you could stay at three shot burst having more confidence of a kill - even at yellow. Although yellow meaning you should change your rate of fire to single shot thereby helping ensure you kill the three, using appropriate tactics, hopefully two or three shot kill for each and surivive the round.

    Whatever, it's really not frequent or even that important as Beppo pointed out, and there is already something similar, yet it would be a feature that could be used often as a colored reference (like the others) if nothing else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2004
  14. Olethros

    Olethros Functional alcoholic

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    I'm really, really against any form of HUD artifact - color-coded or otherwise - showing your magazine level. Even if it only appears briefly when reloading. Approximating the number of rounds left should involve unloading the weapon and spending some time checking the magazine both visually and "by feel." Except, of course, in the cases of the SG551 and the P90. This might take some more coding, but I - for one - think it's worth it.

    And therefore my plans for a "check mag" mutator involves subclassing every single weapon and implementing a "check magazine" function in all of them. Of course, a brand new state 'CheckAmmo' will have to be added and the proper animations set up. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me here... (So far the M16 and the SG551 are done and working fine. Should be smooth sailing from here on. Hopefully.)

    Well, "1/3 full" and "2/3 full" pretty much amount to the same as "less than half" and "more than half" the way the amount is calculated. Although it might sound more accurate, it really isn't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2004
  15. Recce

    Recce Rifleman

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    i think there should be a button that makes you take the mag out and a bar appears that works like the health meter but for ammo, the less ammo the smaller the bar.

    or to make it a bit more difficult it's just a light that changes colour.
    green = full, red = empty
     
  16. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    I concur. Although I think that the image should only update in the hipped mode and the SIG551 should only update when not being fired.

    My point was that the term was too precise. It doesn't really reflect what the soldier actually knows. The way you've done this is very close to how I would have done it if I had any clue as to how. The gripe is a semantical one. By saying the mag is 2/3 or 1/3 full you're effectively saying you have 20 or 10 shots left which isn't really the case. In fact 20 and 10 are not even the mean numbers. The only conditions you can say with any certainty are full and empty.

    My suggestion for future versions would be something like this:
    30-31 rds: "Full" (Full mag + 1 in chamber = 31 rds)
    28-29 rds: "Almost full"
    19-27 rds: "More than half full"
    12-18 rds: "About half full"
    3-11 rds: "Less than half full"
    1-2 rds: "Almost empty"
    0: rds "Empty"

    P.S. Really good job.
     
  17. Da_Blade

    Da_Blade Da sharpest man around!

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    I still don't see why it's so hard to just count your bullet/bursts. Having played inf for so long now i instinctively know if my magazines are almost empty or not. I don't count, i just know. I subconsiously keep track of ammo within magazines and the amount of magazines used. Only in very stressfull situations with close action or having multiple targets while being fired upon it can happen that i shoot my mag empty, but in these situation knowing my mag will be empty doesn;t help anyways.
     
  18. Gnam

    Gnam Member

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    Nice job Olethros, I just tried your mutator. My only criticism would be the text. It overlaps with other parts of the hud and becomes hard to read. Just move it to a different position and it's fixed. Additionally though, I think there's something to be said for making it a temprary hud graphic instead of text just so it takes up less space, less time to read, and non-english-speaking players can use it. I'm not saying to keep the graphic there all the time, just make it pop up and disapear like the text allready does.
     
  19. Olethros

    Olethros Functional alcoholic

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    A brief outline on how the mutator works this far:
    • There are no extra HUD graphics for any weapons.
    • Mag state is reported whenever the weapon is reloaded.
    • The 'infcheckmag' command will cause the magazine to be removed, checked, and re-inserted and its state reported.
    • The exceptions to the above are the SG551 and P90, which will use shorter animations to simulate the user visually checking the magazine without removing it.
    • The mag state report text is localized. This also means that those who prefer "less than half full" rather than "1/3 full" may simply edit the .int file (or whatever localized file they may be using) to get this.
    • The mag state report is displayed slightly higher on the HUD to avoid overlapping other elements at pathetically low resolutions.
    I hope to have a release candidate ready in a couple of days. Although this thread clearly shows that opinions are varied regarding this feature, I think you'll quite like it once you get to try it. I know I do.

    (Only M249, RC50 and DE remaining now, BTW. As well as also some fine-tuning of the animations for the M92F and Mk23.)
     
  20. jayhova

    jayhova Don't hate me because I'm pretty

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    Counting your shots or not counting your shots is't really the issue. Of course you should count your shots. It only makes since too. The point is that the INF soldier should be given as much info as a real soldier. For instance a real soldier would know (or should know) if he is inserting a fresh or partially used mag into his weapon. If he is inserting a used mag he should know about how much he has in the mag. Now, in truth, if you keep track of your shots you should not have to check the mag, but isn't it nice to know you can?
     

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