briefing for the newbies

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Hehehe... yes, the switch to the .223 is probably why they lost the .45 though, switching both types would probably be just too much crap for Nato to take.

If it's still useful, and one of the best weapon designs ever, why should it's age matter?

I'll agree with you about the M9's security, but soldiers all learn to use their weapons safely under supervision, there probably wouldn't be any AD'ing retards that would be around the weapon and ammo alone.

And I also agree about the M9 being a good weapon, I just like others better (and I was just screwing with ya, and ending the recent lack of gun talk). If they really wanted to pierce military body armor or helmets they'd go with the 5.7 (which I'm hoping they will), the 9mm might be more likely to do so than the .45, but it's still not very reliable, you should be aiming for unarmored areas either way.

 

[ShakKen]

9mms have more manstopping power than 5.7mms.

 

[Bad.Mojo]

I want a six foot by six foot round. Set it off with a hammer wearing an asbestos suit (I would be, not the hamma.) Take out a room or something.

 

[Snakeye]

Well, the 5.7 surely goes through more kevlar than any other pistol round.
Still it has less stopping power than a 9mm, as mentioned above. But if it goes to body armour, I'd rather take a .223 than a 5.7.

About the .45:
The 1911 is a excellent weapon, but the M9 is better - at least if you consider all pros and cons of both; and I don't doubt the military is trained perfectly thowards gun security, but not everybody else is. And regarding the security against AD the M9 is near perfect - compared to other modern weapons like the Glock; and don't tell me just a fool can cause a AD with a Glock, because two Police officers died while showing their cadets how to NOT holster their weapons(found at Darwin Awards and confirmed true)
If I had to choose between any handgun without having a special need(stopping power, mag capacity, armour penetration..) I'd take a M9(best reliability and security together with high mag capacity) or a Sig226(not totally as reliable, but very close up, plus a little bit more accurate than the M9)

Snakeye D:

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

 

[CoffeyCan]

.40 S&W is proving to be the wave of the future though. Appears that most Law Enforcement are switching over to it, and its making its way into the US military as well. The balance of capacity/stopping power is addressed well with it and creates a balance between 9mm and .45 that most people seem to enjoy.

I find the M9 to be 'clinky' is the best word to describe. Dont care for the slide action, it sounds loose, and Ive had it jam more than once, whereas the Glock and HK never did. USP series HK takes the cake, best civilian handgun available IMHO, if you can afford it, heavy bank on that one.
CC

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[Snakeye]

Sorry, me not totally understand the word 'clinky' - me just poor man from Austria, me not know well English..

But about the M9:
How the hell did you get it to jam?
Fired 1000 shots without cleaning and oiling it?
That's the best way to get any handgun jam..
(I did this with an M9 too, and it sure didn't work properly..)
And I couldn't say anything bad about the slide action of my dads M9..

Besides, both Glock and HK are excellent pistols, just I do not really like these plastic stuff; not that it had any real disadvantage, I just prefer iron/inox/aluminium.
The only thing I really dislike about the Glock is it's decreased security, and the fact that it has no external hammer.
Call me old fashioned, but I just think a pistol has to have a hammer.

Anyway I doubt this type of discussion leads anywhere; some prefer the one weapon, some the other, and everybody has enough arguments to convince at least himself, why his favourite gun is the best in the world.
That's what I wanted to tell everyone with the:
<The XXX is better than the M9> sentence.
Just don't start any crusade about the best firearm in the world, because it does not exist - or would you tell me there were that many different guns if anybody had invented the perfect one?

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
..definetly not out on a M9 crusade..

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Yes, I know the 5.7's not as strong, but the philosophy behind that round is "A shallow wound is better than no wound at all." If your going up against military body armor the 9mm isn't gonna do much unless you hit the guy in the face/neck, below the helmet, whereas with the 5.7 you actually stand a chance of incapacitating the enemy with a shot to the helmet or vest. And if your NOT going up against body armor, I'd much prefer some "flying ashcan" .45's.

Yes, I would much rather have a 5.56 than a 5.7 as well (the 5.56 is my favorite round anyhow), but I've never seen a gun that holds 20 5.56 rounds and fits in a pistol holster.

Oh and Coffey I completely agree with you about the HK's, I'd have to say my favorite pistol for the price is the HK USP .45... if money wasn't a consideration I'd go with the MK-23, sweet gun but a little hefty on the pricetag (around 2k).

And yes, I really should have said "*IMHO* the MK-23 is better", but this worked out nicely, nothing wrong with gun talk.

[This message has been edited by DeadeyeDan[ToA] (edited 04-13-2000).]

 

[CoffeyCan]

Yeah in the end it all comes down to personal preference, lots of thing play a part, hand size, personal recoil limits, poly or non-ploy, hammer/less, etc etc.

The M9 stovepiped 2 times on me and another time with the guy I was with. It was a rental, so it could have been a cleaning issues, but the place seemed to have good maintance. But as you can expect having a gun jam 2x on you doesnt endear you to it. I saw a glock jam on someone 3 times within 1 hour, but it seemed to be the way the weap was held, so again personal preference of how the weapon works with you..

By 'clinky' I meant that the gun generally felt loose in its moving parts.

Yeah the MK-23 are fine looking weapons, I didnt even bother to mention that one as it seems to far away from then general consumers price range /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
CC

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[ShakKen]

Glock's safeties are No-1. I've never had or seen or heard of a AD with a glock.

The big advantage with a glock is that the're is no DA/SA switching, Your trigger will give you a slick 6 pound DA pull all the time, every time.

Anybody who complains about a Glock obviously need to work on his trigger dicipline.

Sofisticated simplicity. It's true what they say, you can't go wrong with a glock^_^

 

[Snakeye]

What you think is an advantage for you, is a disadvantage for me; I prefer the DA/SA mode of the M9, Sig226 etc; not everybody wants to pull a 6 pounds trigger - over here in Europe less is preferred.

The main reason why I prefer the 9mm at all is its low recoil compared to both 10mmAuto/.40S&W and the .45ACP. I would even take a .22, if its lethality wasn't that bad..

Weapons are like cars and women - everybody prefers something different, because of different reasons - any discussion on such a topic is more or less futile..

Snakeye /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing

 

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Well it's not pointless, if that's what you mean... getting everyone to agree with you is futile, yes; but just having a friendly discussion of preferences is kinda fun.

Personally, I can handle the recoil of the .45 pretty good compared to the 9mm... the 9mm kinda snaps back real quick, while the .45 is slower but longer and stronger. With the .45 I can usually keep the point of aim pretty close to where I want it, with the quick snaps of the 9mm I sometimes don't do so well. Then again that's probably because I shoot .45 so much more often... like you said, it's all personal preferences.

. )